Cyril Smith

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Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:44 am

I see on this mornings news that Simon Danczuk is asking in Parliament today for an investigation into the allegations of what went on at Cambridge House to be re-opened.
It mentioned the allegations against Cyril Smith at the time for which no prosecutions were made.
The files on the case 'no longer exist'
Apparently more people have come forward after his death 2 years ago.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Jeanie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:10 am

If the MP has (as he say's) has more evidence then surely he should have shared it privately with the Police first rather than go to the media Question

For goodness sake let the dead rest in peace and concentrate on the current issues affecting our town.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Dalelad on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:10 am

He is sharing it with Parliament, not the media. For those affected by abuse, I imagine it will still be current to them. I heard a victim talk on the radio last week describing how he was raped by two workers at a children's home 30 odd years ago. It was bloody hard to listen to, I can't imagine what it must be like to have to live with for many years. Let's hope Mr D does share it with the police as well if the new evidence is great enough.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:25 am

Mr Danczuk is due to speak in a parliamentary debate on child sexual exploitation this morning.
Commons Chamber
Meeting starts at 11.30am

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11703

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:32 pm

Well I've got it on but I cant see Simon Danzcuk anywhere.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:53 pm

I was saying on here a couple of weeks ago that both Cambridge House and Knowl View School episodes should be investigated again. The victim's are what's important here, the truth should be found out for their benefit, no matter who it upsets, and like in the Saville case it should not matter if the guilty are dead-just a shame any guilty were not found guilty when alive.

To answer Norman Smith, some victims DID raise their concerns, but like the sex grooming, Wales and Saville cases , they were not believed because of who they the victims were and in the case of Smith and Saville because of who the alleged criminals were.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:38 pm

Jeanie wrote:If the MP has (as he say's) has more evidence then surely he should have shared it privately with the Police first rather than go to the media Question

For goodness sake let the dead rest in peace and concentrate on the current issues affecting our town.

So by the same argument Jeanie, should the Jimmy Savile allegations be hushed-up and the dead allowed to rest? Should we ignore all of the allegations of cover-up and complicity in the BBC?

And what about the alleged victims? Should they not be allowed to have a voice?

Raise issues privately with GMP. What... in THIS town? The victims of grooming abuse raised their issue with the police. What happened? Sweet f*ck all!

We all know of your Cyril-worship and you have gone on record umpteen times over it.

Knowing your oft-stated views re corporate parents. I am amazed that you now set this aside so casually in order to protect the name of the dead.

The reputation of Rochdale will only be further damaged by a continued cover-up.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:02 pm

I only saw Simon Danzcuk sitting there looking pained and grim faced, but, the lady M.P.for Oxford west and Abingdon, with long fair hair spoke very well to an almost empty house of commons at about 2.30pm

The Stockport lady in grey jacket and short dark hair made a few relevant points as well, but her audience looked rather sleepy.

They are still talking now, and Mr. Danzcuk may speak soon.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11703&player=silverlight&wfl=true

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:12 pm

Does anyone remember the story of a Butler who was employed by the royal family who came from Saddleworth but cannot remember his name.

He was Jailed for 4 years for sex crimes against children. He gave two talks on his time and work with the royal family at a wine and beer circle I was a member of. You would think he was a really nice man and was a good speaker and gave a lot of money from his fees to charity. At the end of his talks he would go round shaking hands with everyone.

Now if true a local politician from our past is named, but where is the evidence but should be looked into if more complaints are coming out from his past.

I have shaken hands with the local MP from the past named but for some reason it is making me feel dirty and feeling sick. What I find a worry just how far and wide this is. Just how many people are there and people we meet and had high places in our society. They seem to hide behind very high public standing and positions in our society and it is frightening that the people we looked up to are being named alive or dead. A full investigation is needed but if there is evidence then name and deal with them. Sorry Jeanie if he is suspected and more people are saying they were victims then it should be investigated. If the people named are innocent then they will be in the clear and if people are making false statements then they should be dealt with.

Even the same Jeanie it should not just be left.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:02 pm

Watching the house of commons debate on child sexual exploitation this afternoon on tv is a bit like watching paint dry, but at least things are being said that need saying. British society and the mechanisms of society need to face the facts and get down to the realities of doing something effective about making children safe from sexual abuse and exploitation. According to what has been said, political correctness has a lot to answer for in the police and others avoiding and ignoring the issues, and the media focus on celebrity abuse isn't entirely helpful.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:16 pm

cyfrifia wrote:.

They are still talking now, and Mr. Danzcuk may speak soon.

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11703&player=silverlight&wfl=true

I had to do the school run at 3.05 so I probably missed his bit, I've been watching since 11.45 too! Sad
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:53 pm

M.P. Simon Danzcuk just spoke, briefly.

He looked angry, Mad unhappy and stressed. He didn't manage to speak very well, but laid into Cyril Smith, talking as though he is convinced Cyril Smith was guilty of child sexual abuse, relating how "this 29 stone bully" imposed himself on vulnerable children, describing in some detail what is alleged.

Speaking about Rochdale Council leaders, Simon used the phrase 'Cover up' repeatedly, and spoke of a, quote "Widespread abuse of power in Rochdale."

The general picture Simon gave of Rochdale was of a culture of corruption and disinformation, of abuse going back many many years and so embedded. He gave the general impression he is completely disgusted by what has gone on in Rochdale.

The text of his speech/es should be in Hansard tomorrow.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:58 pm

I saw him, I thought he told it like it is! As far as I saw he did ok.
Not like the guy who spoke on suicide earlier...he couldn't even read his speech without getting it wrong and humming and ahhing, he was so boring I was considering it myself! Laughing
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:24 pm

The general standard of speaking in the house of commons isn't very good. M.P.s are either over-dramatic or mumbling and repeating themselves. So, yes, Simon Danzcuk's speech was good enough by that standard. Seems a bit odd to prioritise an attack on Cyril Smith, but perhaps to give the message how deep the problems are embedded in the politics.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Irishman on Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Jeanie wrote:If the MP has (as he say's) has more evidence then surely he should have shared it privately with the Police first rather than go to the media Question

For goodness sake let the dead rest in peace and concentrate on the current issues affecting our town.

Somehow I don't think he's resting in peace Jeanie.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Spartacus on Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:28 pm

Well done Simon Danzcuk. It is good to see an MP unafraid to raise controversial issues.




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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:11 pm

Am still totally flabbergasted that Jeanie thinks it should all be hushed up.

Like hell it should. That's exactly how paedophillia operates by people not raising issues and keeping quiet.

Very unfortunate that sod all was done in Smith's life but we now have a chance of discovering what, if anything, happened. I hope that the Knowle View issue gets aired also.

Smith may have died but his alleged victims haven't.

It still beggars belief with me that they seriously suggested naming the Leisure Centre after him.

Simon D has shown himself to be an MP not unafraid to raise issues and even to criticise his own party when necessary to do so. I know Simon gets mixed reviews by people but on this issue and on homelessness, he has shown that he is not afraid to ruffle a few feathers.

I agree that the speeches in the debate were laclustre and the turn-out was very disappointing. Where were the government front bench?
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:06 pm

It's grim to have to be investigating alleged crimes of dead people, that should have been investigated properly at the time, yet another demand on valuable resources when so much wants doing now. But yes, it has to be done.

The track record of Rochdale Council that has come to light is a sad story.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  past it on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:15 pm

Jeanie wrote:If the MP has (as he say's) has more evidence then surely he should have shared it privately with the Police first rather than go to the media :?:

For goodness sake let the dead rest in peace and concentrate on the current issues affecting our town.

According to News NW the police files from the time have been destroyed. I wonder why? The matter is being raised quite rightly because those alledgedly abused were either afraid to complain at the time or were not believed, such was the power of Cyril Smith, much like Jimmy Saville. I cannot understand the notion that the dead should rest in peace whatever their lives had been like. Should we extend the same wish to all those members of the church, school masters, care home workers who routinely abused their charges? "It's OK now they are dead, forgive and forget" Hard to believe anyone who cares for people can think that.


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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Prudence Tempered on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:45 pm

[quote="past it"]
Jeanie wrote:According to News NW the police files from the time have been destroyed. I wonder why?

Is that a genuine question or a hint at something sinister?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Jeanie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:07 pm

[quote="Hinch"][size=18]Am still totally flabbergasted that Jeanie thinks it should all be hushed up.

I didn't say it should be hushed up at all Hinch I said get the facts get the truth then deal with it in a proper manner when the evidence is there! Rochdale has many failings to deal with at the moment and everybody ready to jump in and discredit a dead man before the truth is known in my personal opinion is wrong ! Lets get the facts lets get the evidence then lets make a judgement.

I make no apologies for liking Cyril he was a damn good politician we had disagreements about many things and he respected my opinion and we became good friends over the years more so at weeks leading up to his end of his life.

These rumours about him have been going on for years as have many more about a certain ex- politician in another party whom is still alive maybe now that too will surface ?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:15 pm

So then Jeanie. How do we get to know the facts if they is no investigation?
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Jeanie on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:49 pm

Hinch wrote:So then Jeanie. How do we get to know the facts if they is no investigation?

One way or another I am sure the truth will come out !
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:19 pm

This is the Hansard record of what Simon Danczuk said today in the house of commons debate. Sorry it's a long 'copy and paste', but, it is relevant.

4.29 pm
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab):

I thank the hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) for securing this exceptionally important debate. I want to talk about cover-ups in relation to child sex exploitation, and I particularly want to draw on two examples from Rochdale. First, let me turn my attention to what I believe was an attempted cover-up by Rochdale council and the council leader. I do not make these points lightly, and I certainly do not make them for party political reasons. Indeed, it is a Labour council and a Labour councillor is its leader.

As the Rochdale grooming case unfolded in the courts, in April, I first sensed a desire to hide the failure that had occurred when I spoke to Cheryl Eastwood, the then director of children’s services. She explained that it was a "new phenomenon" and that guidance had not been received from central Government, in other words, she was saying that no one was aware of on-street grooming, and she was suggesting that social services needed guidance from central Government to know that raping a young child was illegal.

It did not finish there. Soon after the trial Steve Garner, targeted services director for children, told The Daily Telegraph that his department had not let any of these young girls down. If there was any blame for ignoring the girls’ cries for help, he implied, it did not rest with the department in which he had worked for 11 years.

Helpfully, the Home Affairs Committee immediately started examining issues around child sex abuse, and in June called the leader of the council and the chief executive to explain themselves. It was then that the council leader from Rochdale attempted to suggest that it was a failure of information sharing that had led to the problems in Rochdale. Soon after, with evidence mounting that Rochdale council’s social services department had suggested these girls were making "life choices" and were "prostitutes", the council leader decided to change tack. Indeed, he jumped on the back of an excellent report by the all-party parliamentary group for looked after children and care leavers, and started suggesting that the problems that occurred in Rochdale should actually be laid at the feet of private care homes. He said:

"They do not protect vulnerable children, they do not rehabilitate them back into the community, they do the opposite."

He also said:
"Rochdale borough, at the moment, in the current climate, is the wrong place to send these children."

It was as though Rochdale’s council leader was talking up the failings of children’s homes to avoid having to explain the failings of his own social services department.

The public began to believe that private children’s homes were part of the problem. The reality is that that was not the case, and only one victim had actually stayed in a children’s home. That became apparent months later, when the local safeguarding board published its review. First, it hardly mentioned private children’s homes because they were not part of the problem. Secondly, it pointed out that Pennine Care NHS crisis intervention team had continually tried to share information with the local authority - with the social services department. So the reality is that, contrary to what the council leader had said, people were trying to share information with his local authority, clearly trying to make the point that these girls should be taken into social services care. That was ignored by the local authority.

To bring up to date this sorry tale of an attempted cover-up, only last week the Home Affairs Committee questioned the former chief executive of Rochdale council, Roger Ellis. Throughout the session he denied having known about grooming in Rochdale until the case came to court. He had actually been the chief executive for 12 years. He had served on the local safeguarding board. Indeed, he had been the chief executive of the council when it set up a child sex exploitation working group in 2007 that had identified 50 girls who were at risk or who were experiencing sexual abuse.

Of course, cover-ups happen when reputations need to be protected at all costs. In that respect, attempts to suppress the truth are not new in Rochdale. The culture of cover-ups stretches back much further than the recent grooming scandal and extends right to the heart of our political establishment. If we are to ensure that victims of child abuse are sufficiently empowered to claw back some of the dignity that has been taken from them, we must be open about the widespread abuse of power in our borough. That is why it is necessary to turn to Sir Cyril Smith.

Cyril Smith was a political giant in Rochdale and one of the most recognisable politicians in the country, but his career was continually dogged by allegations that he had abused boys. The allegations even appeared in some of his obituaries. We also know that they appeared in police reports. Lancashire police have recently said that they cannot find those reports, but they accept that they carried out an investigation and it has been suggested that a report was pushed to the Director of Public Prosecutions in 1969.
Today, more victims have come forward and the journalist Paul Waugh, who hails from Rochdale, is reporting fresh allegations against Cyril Smith from victims who claim he assaulted them as young boys at Cambridge House boys hostel. The allegations must be properly investigated and the seriousness of the victims’ complaints must be acknowledged.

I have been passed statements that were issued to the police in the 1970s regarding Cyril Smith’s activities at Cambridge House boys’ hostel, and they make grim reading. For some unknown reason, Cyril Smith had a kind of disciplinarian role at the hostel and was given free rein to administer punishments to the boys. This is one example of how he dealt with bad behaviour:

"He told me to take my trousers and pants down and bend over his knee. He hit me many times with his bare hands and I pleaded with him to stop because he was hurting me. Afterward he came to my bedroom and wiped my buttocks with a wet sponge."

Another of Cyril Smith’s victims, Barry Fitton, has spoken out today in the article published by Paul Waugh on the PoliticsHome website. Another victim, Eddie Shorrock, has also come forward and spoken for the first time about being abused by Smith. This morning I was approached by another victim who does not wish to be named because he feels ashamed about what happened to him and because his wife is unaware of the abuse. He, too, is angry and upset about how Smith treated him.

I have yet to hear any words spoken about the victims of that abuse: young boys who were humiliated, terrified and reduced to quivering wrecks by a 29-stone bully imposing himself on them. What happened to them? How can they ever forget what happened to them? Why was that allowed to happen? We need to be sure that this type of investigation now takes place and that the victims get a chance to have their voices heard.

In conclusion, confronting child abuse is a hard thing to do, but we must never allow reputations or positions of power to deter us from doing what is right. As new victims of abuse in Rochdale come forward to speak about what happened in Cambridge House, Greater Manchester police should consider re-opening the case.

I call on the Minister to do everything in his power to bring police files from previous investigations about Cyril Smith to light. For far too long victims have not been taken seriously in our town, shocking allegations have not been challenged and people in roles of trust, power and authority have abused their positions. Let us hope that Britain is now reaching a tipping point where victims are taken seriously and given a voice. It is only by listening to victims that we can start to understand fully the crime of abuse in our communities. Only then can we ensure that the mistakes of the past are not repeated.


http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/hansard/commons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/418/#c418


Last edited by cyfrifia on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:31 pm

The current MP Simon Danczuk chose to refer to Cyril Smith as a 29 stone bully, amongst other derisive adjectives, during what could hardly be seen or heard as a Commons debate on child sexual exploitation. If MPs are also corporate-national parents, they are en mass noticeably absent.


Perhaps an unwise choice of words used by Mr. D, following his latest grasp of historic allegations made in a borough that is seen by many as having a reputation for our local politicians’ loss of coherent rationale


We are in the midst of reviews into some of the worst child grooming cases known here and mustn’t reduce concentration on these, or the related failures of the police and local authority.


Rochdale’s Labour council leader Colin Lambert, the chap who apparently was not aware of other, but more recent, historic reports of child sexual abuse made to the police and children’s services, has also called in the media for the ‘Cyril Smith’ matter to be looked at again. Quote: Coun Lambert said, “The rumours need either to be confirmed or squashed and people need to go to the police. If there are victims out there in the community they need to give that information to the police so that can be re-investigated.”
Give information to the GMP? Hinch aptly described that pooh


The director general of the National Crime Agency (NCA) has been allocated to review historic allegations of child abuse at North Wales children’s homes. The NCA is new, has no establishment expertise in this field and is trying to obtain suitably trained specialists from police forces throughout the country … with the potential to remove them from their current ‘live’ enquiries and their connected support of present victims.


There are now inquiries about inquiries, all over … shambolic.






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