Cyril Smith

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:43 pm

cyfrifia wrote:Speaking after the debate Mr. Danczuk said: "I am appalled at the response by the Home Office minister. All evidence seems to be pointing towards a cover-up of Cyril Smith’s abuse of children."
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1594149_ministers-sitting-on-their-hands-over-former-rochdale-mp-sir-cyril-smith-abuse-claims

Is there really a continuing cover up, or is Mr. Danczuk seeing cover-ups everywhere?

Whist I think that there may be elements of political opportunism going on here, all the evidence points towards a view that there has been a cover-up going back to the 1960's and 70's.

I get the feeling that some people find it 'inconvenient' to reopen old wounds. I have no issue with Smith's family seeking to rescue what remains of his reputation from the wreckage but I get the feeling there are bodies of opinion, sometimes divided on party lines that sleeping dogs are best left to lie.

I do think that Mr Danczuk is showing some skill as a parliamentatian here who is not afraid to call a spade a spade.

Sadly, anything that comes out is likely to be of little use to his alleged victims; all of whom will be in their mid to late 50's & 60's by now.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:56 pm

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/75399/child-sex-grooming-roger-ellis-evidence-contradicted-by-former-executive-director
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 21, 2012 11:39 am

Greater Manchester Police to investigate Sir Cyril Smith abuse claims
MEN media November 21, 2012

‘Detectives say they will look into allegations that the former Rochdale MP abused underage boys – some of whom may have been living in a hostel.

Greater Manchester Police will look at cases which date back to 1974 – when the force was created. Those which pre-date that will be investigated by Lancashire Police, who previously covered Rochdale.

GMP says it will also be examining its own records to see if complaints were made to police during the 1980s and 1990s.

Sir Cyril, who died in 2010, was elected to Parliament in 1972 and served for 20 years before retiring from politics. Despite facing rumours of abuse throughout his career, and allegations being published twice, he never faced any charges.

Sir Cyril was secretary of the Rochdale Hostel for Boys Association.

Police files dating back 40 years allege Sir Cyril abused vulnerable boys staying in a hostel by spanking and touching them inappropriately.

Assistant Chief Constable Steve Heywood, of GMP, said: “Following discussions between the force and our colleagues at Lancashire Police, it has been agreed that GMP will now investigate any allegations of sexual abuse involving the late Sir Cyril Smith that happened from 1974 onwards.

“We have taken this step to clear up any confusion... as to which force is looking into the allegations.”

GMP also say they are looking into their records to see if any allegations involving Sir Cyril Smith were investigated in the 1980s and 1990s.

But they add that this may take some time, as any allegations predate their computerised records system.’



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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Irishman on Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:01 pm

The statement about “computerised record system” doesn’t make a lot of sense, surely all files were put on the computer when they did start using computers, correct me if I’m wrong someone but that’s what I would have assumed happened? Much of history now is on computers, indeed online; they didn’t just start history when computers were available?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  johnb on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:07 pm

Archiving documents from paper to comuter is time consuming and expensive. summaries may have been put on computer, the full document trail almost certainsly would not have been.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:42 pm

They would have indexed the files onto the system, with a location of the files within their stores, shown on the system.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:47 pm

An index of old files on a computer is not much advantage over an old fashioned card index, or is it?

To scan and digitise old documents and process with optical character recognition is a lot of work, handwritten documents could only be typed up or saved as images. When you consider the confidentiality aspect as well, no wonder old records are difficult to computerise. There is no quick or easy way to do it is there?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:57 pm

When you are dealing with millions of files yes it is much better and easier to have a computerised indexing system. With Dwp files when we index them, a bar-code is attached and then the files are located and put away into a location that is logged.

They can keep the old files in paper form, and just locate them when required from the storage facility.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Chill37 on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:01 pm

I've just read that the cases against Cyril have been split between two Police Forces.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:04 pm

Yes, I can see how a computerised index is better for so many files. The snag with searching old paper document police files, without a word search facility, relevant to the Cyril Smith enquiry must be what they are indexed under?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:28 pm

Indeed, they will have their own system of determining under what it is stored under. In DWP there are some still not computerised and they are stored under the last 2 numbers and letter of the national insurance number on a shelf. When DWP ask for a file they, ask for it under the full national insurance number, and the system automatically shows all the files for that person and where they are stored. Files for that person can be in various warehouses, and even different sites. That could be the case for police files depending on their system of filing.

Yes two police forces now investigating Smith. Presumingly they will have to search records of all the schools he was a governor at and organisations he was part of in which he might have had access to children, or at least they should do. Very worrying to think how many he might have abused.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  keithatrochdale on Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:41 pm

johnb wrote:Archiving documents from paper to comuter is time consuming and expensive. summaries may have been put on computer, the full document trail almost certainsly would not have been.

And yet local planning offices had to convert all past application documents to electronic format - seems like a weak excuse to me.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:24 pm

Guardian extracts:

‘The GMP force will trawl its pre-computerised records to see if any complaints were made to them during the 1980s and 1990s.’

‘any fresh complaints that are made will be thoroughly investigated’

Telegraph extract: GMP Assistant Chief Constable, said today. “I would therefore ask that if anyone does want to make a complaint about abuse that occurred after 1974, that they go to their nearest police station to report it, or call us on 101, or call Crimestoppers on 0800 555 111 if they wish to remain anonymous.”


It was separately reported that the Rochdale MP had requested a specific GMP telephone extension number, or reference number, for potential 'historic' abuse victims to use at this time, in order to raise confidence. Perhaps the Manchester law firm will complain on behalf of those who have been referred to them, but it seems daunting to expect others to simply turn up at their nearest police station ?


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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:19 pm

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/75621/cyril-smith-allegations-gmp-assumes-overall-command

Well, it's official. No longer 'Smith:The Man' but 'Smith:The Child Abuser'.

Hang your heads in shame all those councillors who nodded his Blue Plaque through only a year after his death.


Last edited by Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Irishman on Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:28 pm

Yes, just saw that on the news but will Jeanie believe it? Shocked

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:35 pm

Sadly, opinions still tend to run along party lines Irish.

It was described to me only last week, by someone who really should know better, as 'normal behavior for the times'... which, of course, it wasn't.

The sexual exploitation of children for the gratification of the adult has never been either acceptable or normal.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:07 pm

Hopefully they will find out if any political pressure was put on the DPP to drop the case against Smith. In 1970 Smith did meet with Jack McCann MP of the time, to ask for help with the accusations. Now did McCann speak to the home secretary to intervene? It is believed the HS did intervene.

No longer should he be referred to as "Sir" , he would never have received that award, same as MBE if the full facts were known about him. And the blue plaque should be recycled, and the material reused for something else. If there is anything else named after him, all references to his name should be removed. Is there a statue of him? If there is get it removed and reuse the material. Any honour bestowed on him should be removed, as he would not have received such honours if the full facts of his disgusting perverted crimes had been know.

Just hope that any surviving victims of him can now feel justice has been finally delivered as far as the fact that Smith is now KNOWN to be an abuser. Hopefully if anyone else was involved with him not being brought to justice, they will be found out.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:11 pm

What really interests me is the story of the police files being taken from the Serious Crimes Squad in Preston by MI5 and never returned.

All well recorded in The Daily Mail of all papers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237627/Cyril-Smith-child-abuse-Chilling-claims-Smith-child-abuse-scandal-concealed-avoid-crisis-Westminster.html
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  past it on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:18 pm

I am glad that all those abused children who did complain but were ignored or who did not complain because they were too frightened, can now say to the doubters "I was right".
Shame also on those who protected and supported Cyril Smith despite the rumours and attempts to bring him to justice. Shame on those who probably still hold him in high regard. I hope there are none of the latter but I suspect there will be some.
Get ready for the "yes he might have done those things but what about all the good things he did?".. There will be some who will continue to say it.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:27 pm

Shame on all the councillors of all parties who nodded through his Blue Plaque only a year after he died without either speaking out or expressing any reservations whatsoever.

Let's hope that they just feel a pang of conscience as they pass the blank space with the hastily filled-in screw holes on the Town Hall wall.

Might I suggest that they auction off the plaque on ebay and donate the money to Residential Childrens Services?

Might I also suggest that, once again, our wonderful (?) police force hang its collective head in shame for failing, once again, to 'protect and serve' Rochdale's children? They seem to be making quite a habit of it.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:51 pm

Yes, I reckon its about time the police force had some of the backlash, they were as bad (if not worse) than any of the others who brushed things under the carpet.
The buck seems to have been passed from pillar to post with none of the 'services' taking responsibility
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:38 pm

I am no fan of Simon Danczuk, in fact, I don't like him at all but credit is due here, he has done a very good thing - well done Mr Danczuk, I am sure Smith's victims will be very grateful.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:50 pm

I will second that J.

Did the police fail in the Smith saga? Or did they do what they could getting the evidence together and sending it to the DPP/CPS?

Be worth looking at the role of the local "news"paper in all of this. They always seemed to kick up a stink when anyone tried to get close to the truth about Smith.


The RAP of course were magnificent, and they and Public Eye, and other publications that printed stuff have been vindicated.

On the question of spotlight on Smith and Saville's family, I don't think they should be under any spotlight to be fair, as they cannot be held responsible for their family member's disgusting acts, unless it's shown they actively helped to block justice.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Spartacus on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:01 pm

Yes, well done Simon Danczuk!

Totally agree with regard to Cyril Smiths family. Leave them out of it. They are not responsible for his actions and will suffer a great deal of backlash because of them.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:16 pm

Rochdale Online's John Hardcastle bang on the money... as usual.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/78/opinion/47168/sir-cyril-thanks-for-the-memories
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Re: Cyril Smith

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