Cyril Smith

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:08 pm

UPTHE DALE wrote: I think we all have a duty to highlight the positive in the town as well as the negative, would you agree with that cyfrifia?

Surely, as posters on an open forum we have no such duty? We can spout off however it suits us?

However, it does get wearysome when people are either always positive or always negative. Even more wearysome, to me at least, are when people's posts are always heavily laced with their own political viewpoint. (I will admit to my own, pre-Loony failings here in the past.)

In some ways, although Rochdale seems close to its lowest post-war ebb; at least in socio-economic terms, the borough has never had such a lot of plans in the making; the Metro, town-centre development, river reopening etc.

I'm not sure if our near-neighbours in Heywood & Middleton see it in quite those terms though.

Most of my misgivings aqbout the town tend to be to do with the political make-up of the place. By that, I mean the whole kit and caboodle, not just the party in power. I really don't feel that as a whole-entity, our politicos have their fingers on the pulse of the town at all.

How else would they spend £100K on a free festival at a time of severe cutbacks? Why else would they, in breach of accepted procedure put up a plaque to a man only a year after his death of whom there has always been great controversy and many unresolved issues? The fall-out from the grooming scandal on its own is a sorry testimony on how people in this town have no voice and if they do, so much of what they have to say falls on deaf ears.

The only sound to be heard at times is the shuffling of feet as the 'great and the good' close ranks and stuff cotton-wool in their ears.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Spartacus on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:32 pm

Irishman wrote:This is just a town called Rochdale anybody believing that this hasn’t happened in other towns up and down the country they are naïve to say the least. What this town has to do now is quickly sort out the mess (SOME) people have caused in bringing it down too this level, hiding or trying to cover up what has gone on in the past has got us in this mess. Britain is watching, simple as that, they are watching to see how this town handles it.

The protection of children and the vulnerable in this town is priority and those responsible for that need to understand turning a blind eye is something done in the past but no more, once we get the basics right everything else will fall in place in time.

You can’t blame your local MP for pointing out some home truths when many before him have turned a blind eye or just ignored what has happened in the past and indeed the present.

Doncaster is in the same position with child protection, the council there have been slammed as we type, and they haven’t handled it well in the last few years; this town needs to get this right or face that in the future.

Well said.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Chill37 on Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:32 pm

I think in the terms of the plans /construction of 'things' in Rochdale - on my views only- I am tired of only hearing talk and chatter. The Metrolink. Drake Street needed the stop to give it a fighting chance. Yet RMBC got takne in by the bluster given to them by shiny suited sales people who clearly stated incorrect facts about over lapping stations etc.

The new shopping centre again mired in paperwork and only one Cllr in possession of major retail names queuing up on our streets with their construction crews to open up their flagship stores.

The river opening, better late than never. But things have gone a bit quiet on that front as of late after the intitail stampede for all and sundry to go on record with soundbites about the great and the good but then kinda lose interest. It all reminds me of the promised Arts Centre. I do try and support things in Rochdale but when time after time things that are promised get lost or forgotten about you lose faith. But when a new fantastic things gets promised they (RMBC) expects us all to get excited about it.
But when it comes to 50 Smith Street (the new Council Offices) its gets put up in no time at all with no delay. Yet it wont benift a huge slice of Rochdale population or Rochdales needs. So the first thing people entering or leaving Rochdale is the huge eyesore and mish mash of a building. It should have been the new leisure centre or quality selection of shops. Missed chances again.

Same for the Metro station. A staition built with materials to fit in with the Town Hall Square area over looking the opened River Spod next to the shops. But no we will have Metro station next to a eyesore of a building next to a vast expanse of waste land...oops temporary car park wawaitng a small shopping centre. Nice welcome to Rochdale.

RMBC just cant get it just right. I shudder to think what Power point presentations are lurking for the River Opening.

So I do get very frustrated with the nit picking or infighting of our Cllrs, which the general public repsonded back with the results of the last election in Rochdale. And is stil going on with the latest voting in Manchester. Im not taking the subjects going on in Rochdale any less than seriously, but my friends who live outside of Rochdale plus some people Im doing business with are saying that they cant believe what is going on and other comments have been said. This is the 'image' that is being protrayed. The red top gutter press is not helping at all with lurid headlines like 'Cyril 'was' a peado without any new Police investigation.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:08 am

UP THE DALE wrote: Like it or not, the Smith, rumours have circulated this town since the 60's so I suppose now is as good time as ever to hopefully get the whole sorry episode investigated fully, as well as the continuing investigation into sex grooming.



UTD: it appears at least that the Mirror Group newspapers are pushing, or being pushed, in this.
Maybe it should come under 'Rochdale In The News Again,' as old media reports implied abuse by several parties?


New claims Sir Cyril Smith abused boys at second Rochdale school November 17, 2012 Mirror Group publication ….
; -
http://menmedia.co.uk/rochdaleobserver/news/s/1593934_new-claims-sir-cyril-smith-abused-boys-at-second-rochdale-school

inc... After speaking out the 54-year-old father-of-two (Martin Digan) was made redundant and left Rochdale. He added: "I think that by coming forward when I did I averted further abuse of young children. "I hope that children who were abused at Knowl View will now have the courage to come forward on the back of this. "And I would urge staff who knew of any abuse to come forward. They have nothing to lose now."


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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:36 am

The police were fully aware of what was going on.
The investigation was called 'Operation Cleopatra', detectives came to my house for the paperwork I had that Martin Digan had given to me through solicitors.
I tried for years to get something done all to no avail, nobody wanted to know.
I got as far as a barrister in chambers just off Albert Square in Manchester but after some months I got a letter out of the blue saying my legal aid had been cancelled as they found 'no case to answer'
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:55 am

From today's Northern Voice. Spelling as per original:-

THE Rochdale Observer today did its level best to drag in anyone it couled to try to rescue Cyril Smith's damaged reputation: Jimmy Cricket's son, and Cyril's own Godson, Councillor Dale Mulgrew stepped up naturally; ex-Rochdale MP, Paul Rowen; brother Norman Smith; ex-Whitworth Councillor, Eileen Kershaw; Clive Entwistle, 'investigative journalist' formerly of the Rochdale Observer. 'Safeguarding children,' said Paul Rowan, 'is one of the most important issues we face (and) he (Cyril) did a lot in Rochdale to help young people...'; the widow of Chief Inspector Derek Wheater of Rochdale CID, Jean Wheater, now in her 80s, has said: 'There's nothing in it... he was absolutely innocent'; Dale Mulgrew said: 'This is re-visiting an issue which was closed by the police during his lifetime and so it is unfortunate timing that it has resurfaced after his death.' It will be very unfortunate for the Liberal Democrat Party indeed.

But, described as 'a close friend of Sir Cyril', Eileen Kershaw's comment that 'I worked with him at nearly every school governing body in Rochdale and never heard a whisper about him from any of the schools', is odd given the growing extent of the abuse allegations some now from the local schools. Perhaps the most skillful effort at clearing Cyril is that of Clive Entwistle, a former Rochdale Observer reporter, he plays his cards carefully describing a chat with the great man at his home on Emma Street: 'During our talk Cyril was quite open and, in my opinion very honest about the problems of dealing with boys and young men at the time, who were rough, aggressive, lacked self-discipline, resented any sort of authority and had little regard for personal hygene.' Well, there you go then, dirty little beggars - it's alright to scrub their balls. Mr Entwistle enlightens us further: 'Cyril graphically described how boys reeked unsavourily, often suffering from infections and other ailments due to neglect, but still refused to wash or bath.' Thus Cyril 'on medical advice, insisted the boys looked after their personal hygene and when they refused he admitted striping them and, on occasion, slapped them on the bottom to make them take a bath.' Furthermore, Entwistle writes: 'He (Cyril) admitted he had washed the boys' genitals but only because they steadfastly refused to was themselves', yet 'He (Cyril) was adamant there was no sexual intent in his actions.'

All this Clive Entwistle seems to justify on the basis on historical relativism:
'In the the late 1950s and early 1960s the nation was still feeling the after-shocks-economic and structural-of World War Two. It was also, a time when parents could legally smack their children, teachers administer corporal punishment in school... minor summary justice, not tolerated now, was the order of the day.'

These are the scenarios described by the lads in their accounts: scrubbing and cleaning them down vigourously. The accounts of the lads in the files suggest something like 'Fifty Shades of Grey' without the level of genuine negotiated contractual consent so described by EL James in her novel. Entwistle writes: 'He (Cyril) saw something of himself in their (the lads) misfortune and wanted to give them hope and a chance.' Cyril Smith, the Rochdale lad who says of himself in his autobiography 'BIG CYRIL': 'As a ragged-arsed kid, dressed in second hand clothes I knew the grinding poverty of a mill town in the thirties'. Why does not Clive Entwistle go all the way in his cleansing account and liken Cyril to Socrates? Then we might claim that Rochdale with its Boys' Hostels, pain and punishments, bath time treats, and slaps on the backside is really an Athens of the North, or maybe Sparta with its homosexual aspects. Afterall, Bertrand Russell tells us that: 'Everyone is agreed that Socrates was very ugly; he had a snub nose and a considerable paunch; he was "uglier than all the Silenuses in the Satyric drama" (Xenophon)'


Hinch's points to note:-

1. So sad that even Child Abuse in Rochdale seems to be divided on party lines with former colleagues of Smith queuing up to fight off an Inquiry.

2. Smith was a member of the management committee. He had no carer duties or responsibilities. Times were different then but they had a Warden, Assistant Warden and care staff at Cambridge House 24/7. Smith way overstepped the mark.

As a nurse I helped bathe thousands of patients in my career both in hospitals and care establishments of various types.. At no time would the behaviours described ever have been acceptable. The dignity implications alone are appalling. Smith's role on the management committee was never to give hands on 'care'.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Spartacus on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:45 am

Bravo Hinch!

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:20 pm

More about Knowl View from the past so how can the powers that be say they didnt know if there was anything to investigate or not?
The pile under the carpet is growing ;

http://menmedia.co.uk/rochdaleobserver/news/s/1015186_compensation_bid_over_ordeal_at_knowl_view
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:33 pm

A Labour activist by the name of Chris Paul tried to uncover things that had happened at Knowl View some years ago, strangely enough when I've googled him ALL his contact or blog sites have a warning message
'This site may damage your computer'
reading the warning I find out these warnings can be placed on your sites by a third party maliciously! Now I wonder why anyone would do that?
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:44 pm

How strange!
A site I have just been reading where it says about the authorities knowing about the Knowl View abuse has suddenly been 'disabled'
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Charly on Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:00 pm

This is from his profile on Wikipedia;

During the 1960s Smith was active in many Rochdale Council committees regarding youth activities. These included: Rochdale Youth Orchestra, Rochdale Youth Theatre Workshop, Governorship of 29 Rochdale schools and Chairmanship of the Youth Committee, Youth Employment Committee and the Education Committee.
He held various posts in the church, including Sunday School Superintendent, and a member of the Board of Trustees, which he chaired for many years.

In May 1979 a local underground magazine, the Rochdale Alternative Press made allegations that in the 1960s Smith had spanked and sexually abused teenage boys in a hostel that he co-founded. The matter was investigated by the police and no prosecution resulted. The story was repeated in the same month by the national satirical magazine Private Eye. No public denial or legal action ensued, but after Smith's death the allegations were denied by his family,
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:54 pm

Cyril Smith allegations: MP Danczuk wants 'MI5 cover-up' inquiry

Date published: 19 November 2012 ROCHDALE ONLINE

Simon Danczuk MP has called for an inquiry into the role of MI5 in a potential "cover-up" of alleged abuse by former MP Cyril Smith in the 1960s.

Speaking in Parliament, Mr Danczuk also asked why the case was dropped, against advice, by prosecutors.

An inquiry must "get to the bottom of what several former police officers are now referring to as a cover up", he said.

Sir Cyril's brother Norman said the late MP had denied the allegations.

Several former residents of a Rochdale boys' hostel, including current Rossendale councillor Alan Neal, have claimed they were indecently assaulted by the Liberal MP, who died in 2010.

Mr Danczuk said files from a Lancashire Police investigation in the 1960s, which the force had been unable to find, had now been uncovered by the Crown Prosecution Service.

He asked: "Can the home secretary now look at whether it's true the director of public prosecutions at the time received a second opinion recommending Smith be prosecuted, and why he concluded it was not in the public interest?

He also asked for an inquiry into "what role, if any, security services played".

Crime Prevention Minister Jeremy Browne said members of the public should report claims to the police, and go to the Independent Police Complaints Commission with any concerns over the role of police.

Lib Dem Mr Browne added: "Obviously we would expect those authorities to act on the information provided to them."


Am I reading this correctly, that today's Establishment 'response' is for members of the public, retired police officers, alleged victims and other reporting parties should all now take their concerns to the IPCC ? scratch


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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:24 am

Latest from Norther Voices:-

LAST WEEK, Northern Voices was party with others to the opening up of a story that has lied in the shadows for decades. We cannot claim all the credit as we did not do the original research into Cyril Smith: that was performed by the editors of the Rochdale Alternative Paper (RAP) in May 1979, when they first published the story and were threatened by Cyril Smith's solicitors at the time with a 'gagging writ'. Private Eye and the New Statesman followed through with reports but the case against 'Smith the Man' was killed before it reached the mainstream media. Later attempts to resurrect the story also failed because those giving evidence against Sir Cyril Smith lacked the confidence to put their names in the public domain.


In the last few months, almost by chance, Northern Voices was put in touch through one of our contacts down South with a possible witness and victim, who had not been available in 1979. He had not been available to the RAP editors because he left Rochdale in the mid-1970s. His name was Edward Shorrock and I interviewed him the week before last in Rochdale. I found him to be a convincing and articulate witness, who was both plausible and restrained. Most importantly he was willing to go on the record and to put his name in the public domain. This was a significant game changer in the investigation into Sir Cyril Smith and Cambridge House.


I was then able to make contact with John Walker (a former editor of RAP in the 1970s) and Paul Waugh, a House of Commons journalist who runs the politics / home blog: www.politicshome.com . That's how finally, Northern Voices was able to get two witnesses into what happen at Cambridge House in the early 1960s to go on the record and to give Paul Waugh and Northern Voices their stories about how Cyril Smith ran Cambridge House when he was secretary there. Barry Fitton, now living in Amsterdam, though he had given a statement to RAP in 1979 under oath was keen to come forward and talk to the media once he knew Eddie had given his story. In that way Northern Voices, a 52-page, A5 size, small circulation printed journal with a cultural content, that has been going almost a decade and its larger Blog was able provide the voices that last week led to a crucial speech in the House of Commons by Rochdale MP, Simon Danczuk, on child abuse, and to general the clamour in the mainstream media.


Hinch says:- So now we know where some of the press gets 'it's' story.

Nice to know that the spirit of RAP is alive and kicking.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:29 pm

Now they are saying in the press there may have been a cover up. If the tales and rumours are true why would they cover them up and who protected him and for what reasons?
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:23 pm

I know there was concerns about Smith after the 1974 election when it was looking like there would or might be be a Lib/Lab pact. He was seen as a loose cannon, and they didn't want someone who had a lot of influence within the Liberals bringing trouble to the government. It would have been very embarrassing for his molesting to be exposed, and in 1975 he was the Liberal's chief whip.

This "man" brought much embarrassment to the town when alive, with his embarrassing performances on television and his sucking up to TBA, and now with the exposure of his dodgy exploits with children and young adults.

Who knows how many lives he has ruined with his actions in Cambridge House, Knowl View and potentially other places too, as well as his backing for the killing fields of TBA. Also he was partly responsible for the totally innocent Stefan Kisco being put into prison and then dying very young, after being accused of a murder. What a horrible "man"!!
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Did his own party know about the alleged accusations when he was chosen to be an MP for Rochdale?
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:02 pm

I would have thought so. According to people I know who were involved in politics at that time, and others, it was a well known (dirty) secret, especially within the political ranks.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  past it on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Unless my eyes deceived me there was a piece on TV the other day showing Cyril electioneering wearing a large RED rosette. Cyril was of course a member of the Labour party before he defected to what was then the Liberal party.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:32 pm

The Liberal party in Rochdale at least did wear red rosettes, Labour's were a different shade of red from what I remember-I think.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:36 pm

In Rochdale, Labour wore yellow rosettes.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:55 pm

I know that was certainly the case for the last 15-20 years, but I think before that we were wearing a more rose coloured red. The Lib Dems of course are now yellow, which I think changed when the new party came about.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:15 pm

My Dad was always staunch Labour and the local party colour was always yellow in Rochdale throughout the 50's and much of the sixties. I don't know why although I think they just decided at some point to get in step with the national colours.

The old Rochdale Trades and Labour Club on Drake Street was always painted in bright yellow.

Cyril Smith in his bi-election campaign used a big red blob on his 'Smith the Man' leaflets and fliers.
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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  UP THE DALE on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:23 pm

Probably my memory is wrong then Hinch.

"Smith the man", I do remember, very little mentioned about what party he was a member of. Many people thought he was still Labour.

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:26 pm

Speaking after the debate Mr. Danczuk said: "I am appalled at the response by the Home Office minister. All evidence seems to be pointing towards a cover-up of Cyril Smith’s abuse of children."
http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1594149_ministers-sitting-on-their-hands-over-former-rochdale-mp-sir-cyril-smith-abuse-claims

Is there really a continuing cover up, or is Mr. Danczuk seeing cover-ups everywhere?

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Re: Cyril Smith

Post  Hinch on Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:31 pm

Smith had such a massive popular following at the time that the population would have voted for him whatever party he was in.

How times change but he was an extremely hard working constituency MP in the early days. He came out top of all the 600 and odd MPs for his hard work and reliability in a 'Which' survey at the time.

Looking back on it, I think that perhaps he saw himself as some-sort of 'super-councillor' rather than as a parliamentarian. He took up a hell of a lot of issues that were really the province of ward councillors.

I may have the gravest reservations about him now but at the time, most of Rochdale thought he walked on water and many still do.

He was a very genial guy but if you crossed him, he could 'turn on a tanner' and it was not a pretty sight. What Cyril wanted, Cyril got.
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