Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

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Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Charly on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:01 pm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2268395/Adil-Rashid-Paedophile-claimed-Muslim-upbringing-meant-didnt-know-illegal-sex-girl-13.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Poppyanna555 on Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:15 pm

'Women are worth no more than a lollipop dropped on the floor'....speaks volumes!

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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Atlas on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:37 am

And even if he did. Ignorance is no defense in law. Either way - he loses and thus must suffer the sanction for his illegal actions.
After reading the newspaper report (much against the grain I might add) he almost certainly knew he was breaking Islamic teachings regarding sex outside marriage and therefore must have known he wasn't supposed to be engaging thus. I suppose the benefit of the doubt and the girl's apparent eagerness to participate weighed heavily in his favour. Let's just hope he doesn't become tempted thus again. As for the girl - she deserves a good slap. There didn't appear to be any naivety going on there - more like stupidity to put it bluntly. Or was she just simply ignorant as well.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Hinch on Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:50 am

Are these madrassas subject to regulation or Ofsted inspection? If not, why not?

Yet more compelling reason why the Keith Vaz Inquiry should have been able to consider wider evidence regarding race, culture and faith issues.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Charly on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:51 am

I wonder if the girls attending Rochdale Girls School on Taylor Street are taught they are 'no more than lollipops dropped on the floor'?
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Hinch on Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:45 pm

"I always get the fuzzy end of the lollypop." Marilyn Monroe. In 'Some Like it Hot'.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:12 pm

If a lot of children are being taught that attitude, and at home as well, it will lead to more similar problems. The Vaz inquiry seemed very limited, was it ever intended to consider wider issues?

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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Poppyanna555 on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:08 pm

Cyfrifia wrote: If a lot of children are being taught that attitude, and at home as well, it will lead to more similar problems.

I think it already is Cyfrifia - the 'grooming' situation up and down the country bears witness to that.

I wonder what really goes on in these schools and prayer houses that seem to be springing up everywhere. We already know that there has been (and no doubt still is) a lot of hate preaching in some Mosques.

Perhaps Keith Vaz should have been allowed to investigate the wider issues.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:49 pm

Yes Poppy. We might hope our education system would improve that difficult situation rather than reinforce it. Perhaps some faith schools employ teachers of very traditional view, with the intention of ensuring authenticity of Islamic teaching, but also with such foreign ideas about the value of and place of women. It's something that could soon ruin the reputation of a faith school, so let's hope they are careful about what attitudes they inculcate in their pupils. A good, or even adequate, education should include some citizenship and cultural awareness. Cool

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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Guest on Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:46 pm

"cyfrifia wrote If a lot of children are being taught that attitude, and at home as well, it will lead to more similar problems. --- quote]
_______________________________________


cyfrifia: Why write such an obvious but extremely excessive hypothesis?


You appear to pontificate about the curriculum of faith schools in your later post, no doubt in full awareness of the different regulations for private, independent and free schools, along with the various types of madrassas that exist, both registered and unregistered, in mosques, centres and in private houses.


You claim to live in Todmorden, which has but one very small Hamza mosque. If you have a serious interest in Islamic education therefore it may be worth you making a journey in to Rochdale and debating the practices and range of options with some ‘open’ local’ masjid teachers.



As Ray immediately pointed out, ignorance is not a defence.





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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Hinch on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:06 am

I too may be guilty of a certain degree of pontificating MJH. I write on here largely for recreation and am not an authority on the different types of faith schools and madrassas and how they are funded or regulated. I do suspect that they are a broad church. (mosque?)

Since 9/11 and also the issues emerging out of the grooming trial, I have become more aware of and mildly interested in some of the divergences in perceptions and beliefs between our various cultures. At its most extreme manifestation, this seems to have resulted in an increased radicalisation and polarisation.

I grant that these issues are far too wide and deep for the Vaz Inquiry to get to grips with; even if the will was there, which clearly it isn't.

In this particular case, we seem to see, once again, some degree of mitigation accepted owing to some degree of perceived 'consensual' behaviour on the part of the 13 year old victim.

I certainly don't want to get into Enoch Powell mode and predict any rivers flowing with the red stuff but unless society is prepared to get to grips with some of these issues over the coming years we could be heading for Hell in a handcart.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Charly on Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:16 pm

He knew his plans, why would he book a hotel room when there are only about 60 miles between Nottingham and Birmingham..its not as though he travelled a great distance and would need to stay over.
British Justice? ...a laughing stock, again!
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Guest on Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:37 pm

Hinch wrote: I too may be guilty of a certain degree of pontificating MJH. I write on here largely for recreation and am not an authority on the different types of faith schools and madrassas and how they are funded or regulated. I do suspect that they are a broad church. (mosque?)

Since 9/11 and also the issues emerging out of the grooming trial, I have become more aware of and mildly interested in some of the divergences in perceptions and beliefs between our various cultures. At its most extreme manifestation, this seems to have resulted in an increased radicalisation and polarisation.

I grant that these issues are far too wide and deep for the Vaz Inquiry to get to grips with; even if the will was there, which clearly it isn't.

In this particular case, we seem to see, once again, some degree of mitigation accepted owing to some degree of perceived 'consensual' behaviour on the part of the 13 year old victim.

I certainly don't want to get into Enoch Powell mode and predict any rivers flowing with the red stuff but unless society is prepared to get to grips with some of these issues over the coming years we could be heading for Hell in a handcart.

Not guilty Laughing and I concur with the above points . Back to your earlier query:

Hinch wrote: Are these madrassas subject to regulation or Ofsted inspection? If not, why not?

Our local madrassas are mainly ‘after school’ classes where Muslim children are sent to learn the Koran. Madrassas are classed as supplementary schools (where some physical punishment may still be legal in religious settings, as long as it does not exceed "reasonable chastisement".

These supplementary schools are unregulated and teachers often have no teacher training.
Late last year, a crown prosecutor commented that, in order to meet the demand for Koran study, schools are being set up left right and centre. He added, "There is no Ofsted, no inspection regime, they're reliant entirely on a particular committee enforcing standards” (meaning the classes that are attached to mosques and these mosques’ own management committees)

People may remember the Murder conviction this month of a mother in Cardiff …. who beat her seven-year-old son Yaseen to death, when he failed to memorise passages from the Koran. She had also set fire to his body. The 33- year-old mother, described as obsessed with religious recitation, and her husband had enrolled the young child Yaseen in advanced classes at their local mosque, as they wanted him to become Hafiz … Islamic term for someone who memorises the Koran (Qur’an) Oops, thread drift ..

After countless years’ close involvement with people of different beliefs from the Asian and African continents, for my own part I’m opposed in general to the full-time “exclusive religion” schools, primary, secondary and higher, that are favoured by some faiths as ‘more appropriate’ territory for their devout beliefs.
I’ve found them to be divisive, segregating, polarising and an antithesis formula for social cohesion.

No doubt this view would be against some claimed human rights but, the right to a system where our communities are pulling together at least in shared education provisions may be the underbelly for peaceful future co-existence, cross-sectors, in our 'wider' community.

There are many issues and the British Justice system appears, very mildly put, stymied.


What are the bedrock politics in play ? "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last." ~Winston Churchill ?? !


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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Atlas on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:45 am

I don't think I will comment on this thread. My views are well known by most on here. Fair Fortune. Wink
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Hinch on Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:24 am

So at their more acceptable level MJH, madrassas don't operate much differently to our C of E or nonconformist Sundays Schools which I attended for several years?

I remember getting awarded book tokens for remembering scriptural passages etc.

These of course were also unregulated.

I don't recall any teaching re lollipops although some of the more fundamentalist Christian schools do lean heavily towards 'traditional' female roles centred around child-rearing, and activities based upon the home and family rather than on careers and further education.
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Re: Didn't know it was illegal...RUBBISH

Post  Guest on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:20 pm

Hinch wrote:So at their more acceptable level MJH, madrassas don't operate much differently to our C of E or nonconformist Sunday Schools which I attended for several years?

I remember getting awarded book tokens for remembering scriptural passages etc.

Dur … a resourceful analogy Hinch, but

The Koran would traditionally be in Arabic text and learned by rote in Arabic at daily ‘after school’ sessions, lasting around 1½ - 2 hours, daily, for a basic syllabus … during which appropriate attire in religious context and behaviour are expected from a child. Saturday madrassa classes are often available and longer weekdays' session times are usually accessible for more advanced studies.

Did you read and speak Catechisms, prayer books and Christian scriptures in Latin at your Sunday schools ! I’ve limited knowledge of ecclesiastical haberdashery, but think black cassocks and white surpluses were reserved for altar boys’ religious wear. Maybe you remember the biretta, or little black hat that a priest would wear to the altar though, triggering a known passion for "hats?" cheers





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