Another Lib Dem let down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:30 pm

I realise that this is getting really picky, HL, but I suggest you take a second glance.

27 Lib Dem MPs voted in favour and one acted as a teller. Two were away at the Climate Change Conference and not just the one that you claim. As you say, Huhne would almost certainly have voted in favour but the other would have voted against. That makes is a minority who supported it and no amount of spin or doublespeak will make it otherwise.

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  heywood_lore on Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:36 pm

Let's take the record on the BBC shall we: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11964669
28 In favour
21 Against
6 Abstentions
2 Absent

Hence 28 in favour, 29 not voting in favour.

So let's take your point and change the two absent to:
1 In favour
1 Against.

Which gives us overall:
29 in Favour
22 Against
6 Abstentions

Hence 29 In favour, 28 not voting in favour.

Math never was a Lib Dem strong point.
avatar
heywood_lore

Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:20 pm

Now you really are getting picky (and semantic).

The allegation from Chill was that the majority of Lib Dem MPs hadn't voted against the Bill or abstained. That's simply not true and, as he later pointed out, he knew it wasn't true when he posted it. 28 of them voted in its favour, that's less than half and, to my recollection, constitutes a minority. My maths is fine.

But while we're on the subject, I recall hearing all three local Labour MPs of the time saying that they were opposed to the introduction of tuition fees in the first place In the end just over 30 Labour MPs (out of around 270) voted against the Bill that did introduce them - slightly less than half even by my dodgy maths. The three local Labourites were not among the rebels. I'd even heard two of them saying that they would resign if a Labour government did ever introduce them but am sadly still waiting for this promise to be fulfilled. There's still time, I suppose.

All of them later stood on a manifesto pledge not to increase fees but this second pledge was also broken. At least Nick Clegg had the grace to apologise which is more than we've had from the member for Heywood & Middleton.

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  heywood_lore on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:49 pm

Those MPs have since had to face the electorate, they have judged the MPs on the original Tuition fees introduction so bringing it up seems to smack of desperation.

So back to the issue you tried to dodge, why do you think someone who doesn't vote/actively abstains should be tallied up with those not in favour of something? As the fees passed surely their ducking out of the issue is equal to then tacitly supporting the bill?
avatar
heywood_lore

Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:02 pm

I don't necessarily think that those who abstain should be included with those that vote against, it's just that it was how it had been presented in the first place. If Chill had said that more Lib Dem MPs voted for the measure than against then he would have been absolutely correct.

On your original point, are you really saying that it's OK for Labour MPs to lie but only if they are not in a marginal seat? It would also mean that you would have to keep quiet on the subject until after the results of the next election are known. And interesting to know that you think a lie told several years ago doesn't count. That doesn't seem to have worked for Chris Huhne this week - and nor should it.

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  heywood_lore on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:10 pm

Prudence Tempered wrote:If Chill had said that more Lib Dem MPs voted for the measure than against then he would have been absolutely correct.

I'll agree to that, might even get that admission framed!

On the other point it's my belief that the electorate had the facts in front of them and still chose to elect a Labour MP, now there may be some debate about electoral systems ect. but nonetheless they still returned MPs in 2001 with similar majorities.

The difference between this and Chris Huhne (and Cyril Smith) is that they were never judged on the lies told. They weren't revealed and as such people didn't have the oportunity to elect them in full knowledge.
avatar
heywood_lore

Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:35 pm

In the election after Labour reneged on its first tuition fee pledge only 40% of those that voted put their cross against a Labour candidate and over of the electorate didn't vote at all. Unless you're now going to change your mind and claim all abstainers for your own side then that's over 70% who didn't endorse their broken promise.

However, you seem to be more than forgiving and charitable about broken promises on tuition fees - or is that only when the Labour Party does it?

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  heywood_lore on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:47 pm

Prudence Tempered wrote:In the election after Labour reneged on its first tuition fee pledge only 40% of those that voted put their cross against a Labour candidate and over of the electorate didn't vote at all. Unless you're now going to change your mind and claim all abstainers for your own side then that's over 70% who didn't endorse their broken promise.

If anything that supports my point. Those that didn't vote did so knowing a Labour Govenrnment was fairly inevitable, thus by not voting they were either saying 1) They didn't care or 2) They were in tacit albeit not outight agreement. Those that didn't vote helped Labour in, just as the abstainers helped tuition fees go through.

I'm a very forgiving individual and campaign on issues that are current to this Parliament. You'd hardly see me going round with a leaflet on the disastrous black and tans policy pursued by Lloyd George for example!
avatar
heywood_lore

Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:08 pm

Let me see if I've got this right. Anyone who didn't vote for the Labour Party when it was clear they were going to win was, in effect, voting for them? How does that work in a situation like 2010 when it was clear that they were going to lose? Or, again, does the rule not work when it's the other way round?

I admit defeat on the Black and Tans reference as I have absolutely no idea what it means.


Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:44 pm

It's half a bitter in a pint glass with a bottle of guinness poured slowly on top of it.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3130
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:46 pm

cyfrifia wrote:It's half a bitter in a pint glass with a bottle of guinness poured slowly on top of it.

So I suspect that Lloyd George's 'disastrous policy' was to drink it!

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  heywood_lore on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:36 pm

In the 2010 case I would argue that by not voting, they were accepting that 1) They were okay for the Conservatives to win power or 2) Didn't care. If the non voters had wished they could have stopped that happening.

The Black and Tans were a paramilitary force sent to Ireland by the British Government to suppress the bubbling disquiet. They suppressed it via mass violence and reprisal attacks on Civilians, the worst of which was 'Bloody Sunday' in 1921.
avatar
heywood_lore

Posts : 7
Join date : 2012-09-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Atlas on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:01 am

Counting numbers doesn't matter one jot. In this instance the Liberal Party, those that mattered, gave a pledge before the election not to bring in tuition fees. Once in a position of power and trust they blatanly broke that pledge. It matters not the hand-wringing that followed or the excuses. A pledge is a pledge in such circumstances and had they had to find the money to cover such expense it should have been found in other ways OR they should have voted against it IN TOTAL - or resigned. It shows a distinct lack of morals and worst of all INTELLIGENCE. Such who lack a moral fibre are not fit to represent the people of this country under any circumstances. No wonder they spent the last century out in the wilderness. Sad
avatar
Atlas
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3016
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:00 am

Does that also apply to the Labour broken pledges on tuition fees?

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Chill37 on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:11 am

You know something. If you put as much of this energy into actually serving/helping the people who voted for you etc as you do fighting over who said this, who said that.Or bringing in other parties who are not in power as an excuse for the MINORITY of your party lying and u-turning. Or Spinning twisting throwing mud at each other then we would have a Town we could be proud off.

Nothing changes, it never will.

Good luck.

Chill37
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Posts : 742
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:26 am

You could always follow your own advice, Chill. Just a thought.

Prudence Tempered
Crew
Crew

Posts : 166
Join date : 2012-09-27

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  johnb on Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:19 pm

Nobody voted for Prudence. He is a party activist.
avatar
johnb
Space Cadet
Space Cadet

Posts : 483
Join date : 2012-09-05
Location : Rochdale

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Atlas on Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:26 am

Prudence Tempered wrote:Does that also apply to the Labour broken pledges on tuition fees?

It applies to all and any hard-fast pledges made in a manifesto or on the public media. It shows a distinct lack of logic or intelligence on behalf of the leaders of the Liberal Party and will go down as the death knell that finally finished them off. Stupid is hardly a strong enough word for it. The Party is being led by idiots if such was not apparent at the time of the decision. Not to put too fine a point on it - A bloody shame after all the hard work of their predecessors. Sad
avatar
Atlas
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3016
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Chill37 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:56 am

Prudence Tempered wrote:You could always follow your own advice, Chill. Just a thought.

Yes I have often thought about running too. As I do put a lot into my community. Such as lobbying Cllr Kelly over the illegal car sales going on in my area which was highly sucessfuil. I am still carrrying on with regards to re-cycling bins/locations for Newhey.


Chill37
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Posts : 742
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  teamplayer2 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:50 pm

The Lib Dems are full of talk but once in power it goes to their heads. How can a party be in power at national level with such a small minority? It does not seem right they are causing so much misery for the majority of the people who did not vote for them at the last general election.

Also with a couple of dishonest MPs at that over the years.
avatar
teamplayer2
Spaceship Commander
Spaceship Commander

Posts : 1019
Join date : 2012-09-07
Age : 61
Location : anywhere

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Chill37 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:10 pm

teamplayer2 wrote:The Lib Dems are full of talk but once in power it goes to their heads. How can a party be in power at national level with such a small minority? It does not seem right they are causing so much misery for the majority of the people who did not vote for them at the last general election.

Also with a couple of dishonest MPs at that over the years.
Dont worry it will be spun out of control with references to Labour etc. Its everyones fault but theirs atitude.


Chill37
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Posts : 742
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  teamplayer2 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:18 pm

Mind you Chill37 have you ever known the Lib Dems admiting to anything without putting a spin on it over the years. Also trying to shift blame.

Another example did they really improve the town of Rochdale over the years when they were in charge?

When pervert Smith was first reported what did they do to act on it?

A lot of questions of Lib Dems on how they acted as a political party in Rochdale and needs an explanation and a lot of apologies to the victims and the public of Rochdale
avatar
teamplayer2
Spaceship Commander
Spaceship Commander

Posts : 1019
Join date : 2012-09-07
Age : 61
Location : anywhere

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Chill37 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:38 pm

Never. Just always eager to throw mud at people. Or turning it around onto the people who dare to question them. It happened over on RO and now on here.

Thye cant seem to grasp that they are and not Labour are in power when asked about their U -turn.

Probably AN OTher parties fault when the LibDems imploded the other year.


Chill37
Officer of the Watch
Officer of the Watch

Posts : 742
Join date : 2012-09-05

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Atlas on Tue Feb 12, 2013 12:40 am

teamplayer2 wrote:The Lib Dems are full of talk but once in power it goes to their heads. How can a party be in power at national level with such a small minority? It does not seem right they are causing so much misery for the majority of the people who did not vote for them at the last general election.

Also with a couple of dishonest MPs at that over the years.


It's called democracy teamplayer2. The larger party (in terms of seats won) can co-opt other party members (having also won a seat) to join them in order to outnumber others who have a different approach to the way things should be done. How else would anything get done? What gives you the idea they have any 'real' power? In terms of numbers only by temporarly joining the 'others' can they hold the 'balance'/ 'balances' in check. Now I know you understand the principal, being reasonably intelligent, what surprises me is that you feel the need to 'ask'????? Don't you like Lib Dems? Do you have some obscure untreatable malady? Political racism perhaps? Very strange. Question



B.N. Many thanks for your contribution to the 'Story Game' I thought for a moment there I was playing by myself. affraid
avatar
Atlas
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3016
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  teamplayer2 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:00 pm

Sorry Atlas you asked do I not like Lib Dems?

No I do not.
avatar
teamplayer2
Spaceship Commander
Spaceship Commander

Posts : 1019
Join date : 2012-09-07
Age : 61
Location : anywhere

Back to top Go down

Re: Another Lib Dem let down

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum