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Childrens funerals

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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:18 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-22050854

I thought undertakers did childrens funerals for free?
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Post  Hinch Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:14 pm

If you are thinking that undertakers are philanthopists in the matter of funerals for children, perhaps a re-reading of 'Oliver Twist', with particular emphasis on Mr & Mrs Sowerberry may cast a little illumination on the subject of this 'dismal trade' Dear Heart.


Last edited by Hinch on Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:29 pm

Seriously, all the funeral directors I dealt with did children gratis.
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Post  Hinch Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:48 pm

The funerals of those poor kids in Derby must have cost a fortune. All horse-drawn hearses. Tragic.

I believe that the 'grieving' parents wanted any excess from the appeal fund to be paid in Argos vouchers.
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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:33 pm

And they wanted to auction off the gifts left by neighbours of teddies and soft toys!
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Post  Hinch Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:37 pm

And a sex life that upon the details being made public had Mrs H clutching at her rosary beads saying, "Sweet divine Jesus" repeatedly.
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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:50 pm

The whole sordid tale was beyond even the most lurid of horror stories. Even though Hindley and Brady planned to abuse and murder children, these were the parents of the 6 kids who should have protecting them, esp the mum. I only hope that eventually without his influence her conscience weighs her down so heavily that she does what the law should allow, and ends up dying far earlier than her allotted time. Or do I? Perhaps a life weighed with guilt is a just sentance. As for the other two, hopefully the other prisioners will see to it that they suffer a fraction of the terror that the children suffered, especially the brave oldest lad who battled to save his siblings.
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Post  Hinch Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:33 pm

I am sure they will all receive a warm welcome on their respective prison wings though not as warm or as prolonged as they most assuredly deserve.

Callous to the point of indifference and depraved beyond belief yet he still obviously thinks of himself as 'Jack the lad'.

They should all have drawn 30 year minimum terms. That still only works out at 5 years per life so callously gambled away.
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Post  Heywoodpp Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:37 pm

Usually funeral directors do not charge their own fees for funerals of babies and very young children. Up to what age this applies depends on the undertaker. However, although they won't charge for their own professional services they will charge for items that they have to buy in from outside eg the cost of a grave or the crematorium fees, doctors' fees, hired-in vehicles etc.

So there is still a cost. Hence the appeal.
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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:42 pm

Ah of course. I had forgotten those expenses.
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Post  southernbelle Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:48 pm

I have been rightly questioned in a PM as to why I stated that the mum esp should have protected the children. My reply was as follows:

"Assuming him to be the ringleader/instigator of the fire (as per the findings of the court), mum should have then been the first line of defence. If it were shown to have been her idea, I would have said he should have been that defence."

Of course in a "normal" family, children have the right to expect such protection from both parents equally.
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Post  Heywoodpp Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:50 pm

That's interesting, SB. Mrs Doyle and the ladies who assist her in the presbytery here have all been of the opinion that the mum should have got a longer sentence because it is much more horrendous for a mum to allow her children to be put at such risk and to lose their lives.
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Post  Jeanie Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:32 pm

Heywoodpp wrote:Usually funeral directors do not charge their own fees for funerals of babies and very young children. Up to what age this applies depends on the undertaker. However, although they won't charge for their own professional services they will charge for items that they have to buy in from outside eg the cost of a grave or the crematorium fees, doctors' fees, hired-in vehicles etc.

So there is still a cost. Hence the appeal.

Children's funerals have never been free ? they pay the same rate regardless depending on the age of the child more or less over the age of 5 years .!
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Post  Guest Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:44 pm

[quote="southernbelle"] Perhaps a life weighed with guilt is a just sentance. As for the other two, hopefully the other prisioners will see to it that they suffer a fraction of the terror that the children suffered, quote]
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Southernbelle: They seemed to show little, if any, guilt .... images of crocodile tears were fetid history by the time they were sentenced.

You may find the ascribed parents are not put on general prison wings, as they could be classed as "Vulnerable" and "At Risk" there from other prisoners," leading to their future residence in special units, or in segregated areas, to keep them safe.




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Post  southernbelle Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:31 am

How ironic that they should be "kept safe."
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Post  Hinch Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:19 am

I think that crimes like this, the Moors murders, the Fred West case etc always take on an even more horrific dimension because a woman is involved.

Rightly or wrongly, society still generally expects women to carry an additional burden of responsibility because of the level of expectancy that they carry with regard to their nurturing or protective role towards children.

Not sure how I feel about this to be honest. All should be equal before the law but it will take a long time before public attitudes change in this respect.

I don't think there was much equality in the Philpott household. Mrs P was treated worse than a whore and ordered to give oral sex to whoever it suited her husband for her to do so. Small wonder that she became dehumanised.

I am not claiming that she was merely a hapless victim; she wasn't. But neither could we have expected a 'normal' range of reactions and responses from someone who was treated as being less than garbage by her vile spouse with a violent history including attempted murder.

Neither should be allowed near children ever again.
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Post  johnb Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:44 am

I confess to being a little surprised at the severity of the sentence. This was a terminally stupid and reckless act, but with no intent to harm the children. Sentencing is supposed to be based on intent, not outcome.

It looks like sentence is designed to keep the readers of the strident tabloids comfortable in their complacency that justice has been done.
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Post  Hinch Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:00 pm

It was both reckless and deliberate and although not the intention go kill the children, six lives were lost in an outcome that was reasonably foreseeable.

The law is entitled to extract a few ounces of flesh here surely?

As for tabloid readers, many of them would have preferred the death penalty.

We all have to live with the consequences of our actions whether they be wise, ill-advised or just plain bloody reckless.

Philpott had already served one jail sentence for attempted murder. Clearly any lessons to be learned about the sanctity of human life passed him by. He is a morally depraved character whose reckless actions to fraudulently get rehoused led directly to the death of six children.

Even in the immediate aftermath he managed to laugh and joke about it and figure out ways of making capital out of their memorial fund.

Save your sympathy for his victims. 14 years represents just another stage in this degenerate's downward spiral.
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Post  Guest Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:22 pm

johnb wrote:I confess to being a little surprised at the severity of the sentence. This was a terminally stupid and reckless act, but with no intent to harm the children. Sentencing is supposed to be based on intent, not outcome.

It looks like sentence is designed to keep the readers of the strident tabloids comfortable in their complacency that justice has been done.

The deliberate, premeditated house fire in May 2012 was a criminal act of arson clearly endangering the children’s lives and resulting in their deaths …. manslaughter.

Two were sentenced to 17 years in prison and will be required to serve just half, before being released on licence. That’s 8½ years max. sentences, minus any time already spent in custody.

6 innocent children died as a result of the actions of the Philpotts and Paul Mosley who, since the fatal fire last year, have shown no remorse for their actions. The three of them were shown to have consistently lied throughout the investigations and court case.

I'm surprised additional charges weren't brought, perhaps they will be in future ....





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Post  Poppyanna555 Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:58 pm

Scum of the earth, they didn't get long enough!!
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Post  Atlas Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:57 am

Were they the scum of the earth when they were asking for the council to re-house them in their overcrowded council house? Were they the scum of the earth when they were receiving 40k plus a year in welfare (as laid down by law, sanctioned by Parliament and successive governments)? Were they the scum of the earth when they took the opportunity to profit from their profligate lifestyles with the press and television medias? Or is that only NOW when their imbecilic attempt to get 'rehoused' went badly wrong?
I think we need to recharge our thinking batteries here and look at the wider picture and ask ourselves - are they the only reason behind how this episode came about and what does it say about our present systems and our people at large? Neutral
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Post  Hinch Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:23 am

So the blame for the deaths of these six kids can be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the council and the government(s)?

Right, I get it.
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Post  cyfrifia Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:51 am

There is a 'Shameless' effect in our society, that seemed to kick in during Thatcherism, an anti-education, 'treat us as scum and scum we will be' sort of reaction to the circumstances arising from political policies. What with the import of drugs and the binge drinking culture, then the shallow celebrity culture, etc, there is a rot in social behavior. UK politics seems to focus on international matters too much, and not really think through the domestic matters.

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Post  teamplayer2 Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:40 am

There has always been evil in any society. Just to blame it on a welfare culture is just an excuse to attack the welfare system.

So what do you say about the pillars of society like some of our MPs who have gone to jail for criminal activities. The fault of capitalism!

Some people are just evil. There are thousands of people on welfare and do not act like this and would like a normal life and get back into work as much as other decent people.

Some people are evil and and take a chance and some take it to the extreme and kill to gain for the sake of greed. Yet you do not hear anyone in government shout and scream to sort their own out when they are caught with the hands in the till.
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Post  Atlas Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:23 am

Hinch wrote:So the blame for the deaths of these six kids can be laid fairly and squarely at the feet of the council and the government(s)?

Right, I get it.

In most respects 'YES' Hinch. They created the society that allowed the abuse. They created the society that left a large section of the nations children to rot - on welfare. Who do you want to blame when the 'organisation' fails so lamentably - the workers or the idiots who form the policy and put it into action?????
The fact the man had no moral scruples or commonsense will in a large part be due to his own upbringing and what society has 'allowed' him to 'get-away' with within the present (and past) structures. So 'YES' Hinch I do to a large extent. I hope that's clear enough. Smile Sad
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