Sharia Law

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Sharia Law

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:28 pm

Sharia law courts already exist and are used, discussions are about whether they should become more formally recognised and resourced.

Bradford Council for Mosques president Mohammed Mushtaq said: the work of the Shariah council now needed to be recognised at Government level and better resourced with an agreed framework.

"Council for Mosques Bradford is presently consulting Imams and Muslim scholars regarding an appropriate framework that is robust and transparent which may serve as a template for other towns and cities."

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10341115.Bradford_Council_for_Mosques_in_talks_over_Shariah_court/?ref=mr

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Re: Sharia Law

Post  southernbelle on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:38 pm

What happened to the law of OUR land?
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Charly on Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:59 pm

Does that mean if I commit a crime in their country I can insist on British law rules being used ? (as in not getting the death penalty) oh no...of course not!
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:38 pm

With the established Muslim communities we have, it seems inevitable Sharia Law will operate to some extent, one way or the other and sooner or later. The questions really are about what it should cover, what needs to be duplicated in common UK law, how widely available it should be, how it is paid for, and how the UK model and version should compare to Sharia law of other countries.

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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Hinch on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:47 pm

Rabbinical courts have been operating in the UK for three centuries. How come none of you have complained about these?
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Charly on Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:50 pm

Have they tried to force it on us?
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Hinch on Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:55 pm

Not as far as I know but I see no suggestion in the piece that anyone is trying to force sharia civil and commercial law on non-Muslims either.

My own main objection to both rabbinical and sharia courts is the vastly inferior rights afforded to women with regard to property, inheritance and marriage and divorce settlements.

Personally, I'd rather take my chances in front of Judge Judy.

In the UK of course, we have loads of different types of courts operating under completely different systems using different weights of evidence.
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  past it on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:26 pm

Charly wrote:Does that mean if I commit a crime in their country I can insist on British law rules being used ? (as in not getting the death penalty) oh no...of course not!

When you refer to "their" country were you thinking of all of them? I believe there are approx 50 major Muslim nations.

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Re: Sharia Law

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:59 pm

Due to the Sharia not being equal in law to all people then as far as I am concerned it should never be part of British Law.
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Charly on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:07 pm

I was meaning any country that has sharia law
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:37 pm

Secrets of Britain’s Sharia Councils was due to air on Panorama at 8.30 last night, on BBC 1, but following the death of Baroness Thatcher it was postponed to a later (and yet unannounced) date. Perhaps that's why Cyffi started looking at the subject.

Baroness Cox, who has a Bill in Parliament aimed at tackling Sharia councils, warned: “It is time to draw a line in the sand and say ‘enough is enough’.”

She warned against a system which, “ in its gender discrimination causing women such suffering, is utterly incompatible with our country’s values”.


Nuff said?


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Re: Sharia Law

Post  past it on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:19 am

Charly wrote:I was meaning any country that has sharia law

In other words all of them. All Muslim states have Sharia laws. Not all states as far as I am aware implement it.

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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Atlas on Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:39 am




The only 'law' in this country is that as laid down in Parliament and instituted through our legal system. Any others (no matter from which religion, community or country), but not excluding International Laws as agreed by Parliament, have no relevance or should be allowed -END OF. I'm not interested in so called 'communities' that wish to embed themselves amongst us and 'operate' their 'own' ideas' of the way they wish to live. In Rome do as Romans do - same goes for the U.K. If not go elsewhere. affraid
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Hinch on Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:55 am

The basis for much of the law in this country and that which has spread throughout much of the world is English Common Law or 'judge-made law' which has been nowhere near Parliament. (See Donahue v Stevenson for an excellent example.)

This famous ruling established the Duty of Care and greatly altered the Law of Contract.
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Atlas on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:37 am

Agreed Hinch and not about to take issue on semantics. But I think you know where I'm coming from. If I go to live in India then I wouldn't expect to live there under the protection of British Law (although I do know that much of what now exists was formed by the British in the distant past). I would also consider it a courtesy if not mandatory to learn the local dialect (of which I believe there are dozens) in order that I may understand and be understood. Before you leap out at me with - Did you learn Welsh then? - the answer is no. The reason - because I have yet to meet an indigenous fellow traveler here who doesn't already understand and speak English and therefore such a 'trauma' wasn't necessary. Culture in the form of religions, dance, song etc etc etc I have no beef about. Laws which cut across the host countries laws and which give less protection from abuses I certainly have. Wink
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Hinch on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:54 am

When I was living in Cardiff, (Caerdydd) I took the time and trouble to learn a bit of the lingo although they were 100% English speaking where I lived and worked. Also took the trouble to learn a bit about the history, politics & culture. Also used to go to the rygbi (rugby) internationals at the old Arms Park and even learned the damned national anthem.

I would not claim to be a Welsh speaker but I can order drinks, food, know a couple of poems in Welsh, hold a very basic conversation etc.

No point living in another country if you don't at least try to understand what makes it tick.

Cymru am byth!
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Atlas on Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:46 am

Best be careful Hinch. Don't want you falling over your crosier. Wink
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  teamplayer2 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:17 am

Why do we allow someone else to impose another law which is not legal and not passed in a democratic way be allowed in our country?

Also it is not equal and democratic to all so should be investigated to see if they have broken any of our legal system passed by our government.

Did they allow equality for everyone and have a fair hearing and who are the people who try and impose an illegal system in an undemocratic way in my country?
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  johnb on Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:40 pm

People have always been able to come to private arrangements, and in this context, Shariah is arbitration washed.

The problem comes when those who choose to use other arrangements attempt to insist that their arrangements have precedence.
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Guest on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:21 pm

Arbitation and Mediation are sometimes ‘signed’ on doors in Sharia councils in this country. Pressure from the increasing number of Sharia councils and the communities they serve is causing suffering though – Islamic religious rulings can and do run counter to British law.


Take the example of the woman in Leeds granted a civil divorce due to her husband’s extreme violence towards her and to their children. He was only allowed indirect access to the children by the courts. But when the wife went to Leyton Islamic Sharia Council for a Sharia divorce, she was told she would have to give up her children to him.


Sharia courts are not officially allowed to intervene in matters involving child custody, but Leyton Sharia Council’s website features ( or did!) the Sharia rulings on children. An Islamic school of thought decrees a father can take custody of a boy at the age of seven and a girl as young as nine. “I could not bear the thought of such a violent person having my children,” the woman recounted. “What was even more shocking was, when I explained to Leyton council why he shouldn’t have access to the children, their reaction was – well you can’t go against what Islam says.”


There are many worrying cases involving domestic violence and children. ‘We want to mediate first and reconcile,’ explain Islamic scholars who advise the councils. The tenet that women are somehow responsible for the abuse they are suffering is seen by many to remain a common denominator


The previous government gave up on its attempt to investigate Sharia councils when they could not get proper access to them. The present government’s view is that Sharia law is not law in England and Wales and existing legislation already deals with issues about Sharia councils that are raised by their campaigners.




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Re: Sharia Law

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:30 pm

If Sharia law only operates within the communities that want and choose to accept it, should they not have that freedom to choose? The fear seems to be that Sharia law may be imposed on those who do not want it, but, UK common law should protect them from that.

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Re: Sharia Law

Post  Atlas on Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:35 am

cyfrifia wrote:If Sharia law only operates within the communities that want and choose to accept it, should they not have that freedom to choose? The fear seems to be that Sharia law may be imposed on those who do not want it, but, UK common law should protect them from that.


Absolutely Not. NO. Minority rule runs counter to democracy and produces anarchy. Find me a 'better' way of running society than the present democratic one and perhaps then it would be open for debate. affraid
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:58 am

Whether we debate it here or not, the potential place of Sharia law in the UK is open for public debate. It has been operating informally to some extent for many years, and there is an expectation that sooner or later, and to some extent, will be recognised and formalised.

If a UK version of Sharia law is tolerated, integrated and recognised as limited to certain areas of life, such as business matters, marriage and divorce etc, that will be better than allowing it being limited to certain geographical areas.

There is the option for the government of the day to apply a policy of more comprehensive long term cultural integration, (perhaps the opposite of multiculturalism), including that immigrant communities, however large and influential, cannot apply their own laws even in a limited way, and must expect to integrate into and accept mainstream UK society, even if this does take some generations to achieve.

It's a debate which will probably rumble on for some time, and may remain yet another unresolved patchwork compromise.


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Re: Sharia Law

Post  teamplayer2 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:32 pm

Yes Sharia Law cannot be a part of our society cyfriia if it cannot be equal to our British Laws. No point in having a law that is not equal for everyone. British law might not be perfect but a lot better than Sharia law.
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Re: Sharia Law

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:56 am

From what we read of Sharia law in other countries, it's something we can do without. But, it seems to be on it's way.
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10341115.Bradford_Council_for_Mosques_in_talks_over_Shariah_court/?ref=mr
Sharia councils have operated for many years and are lobbying for more official recognition and support. It's difficult to oppose something which is a religious belief and a way of life, exactly where the limits of Sharia law should be is the question. The worst and most divisive option is to have geographical limits, with Sharia law, it's dress and behavioral rules operating in some places and not in others.

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