The Black Flag rises.

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The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Wed May 29, 2013 1:05 am

Syria. Sometimes it is kinder and safer in the long run to leave things well alone. Cruel and heart-rending yes. However - - - !
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed May 29, 2013 10:43 am

The war in Syria is horrendous. The UK is not in a position or condition to make yet another foreign intervention. Even if it strained every sinew to intervene, it could well make things worse, both there and here. Can more be done to dampen the horrors via the United nations and the E.U.?

The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said, “Confronted with the flagrant disregard of international law and human life on every side, I feel utter dismay.”

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Thu May 30, 2013 1:02 am

He's not on his own.

Whilst we here in the West have a high disregard for the various forms of government in the Middle East it has to be said that it is due to the historical suppression of the peoples of those countries that some form of peace has reigned therein. The peoples freedom in trying to rid themselves of dictators and suppressive royals will (as ever) bring about 'terrors' which in themselves have a half-life before any real forms of democracy will endure. It seems we cannot bring about transitions without major upheavals as a consequence. It is a sad state of affairs which we (the West) cannot help in without making things worse one way or another. Sad
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:49 am

The black flag has certainly made itself known now, with the advance into Iraq.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jul 03, 2014 1:41 am



Indeed. And it isn't unexpected. Either the various forms of Islam will have to learn to live together, or destroy each other before any real form of peace can be expected to survive in the Islamic world. This isn't the first time that Caliphates have been introduced and probably won't be the last. I do know one thing - we should keep our noses out of it all.
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Hinch on Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:09 pm




Very sad news today with an apparently British Muslim on video beheading an American journalist. I suppose it had to happen eventually, but how the hell do you address issues like this?




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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:39 am

Try to assist in stopping all that we think is wrong without meddling to much in the affairs of the local populace. A tricky situation and one that needs very careful handling. The Islamic world will have to sort out its own problems in the long run. The backlash we will have to sort out as it happens - and it will. Crying or Very sad 
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:28 am

David Cameron adresses the issue, saying    "...we know that far too many British citizens have travelled to Iraq and Syria to take part in extremism and violence, and what we must do is redouble all our efforts to stop people going....."

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2014/aug/21/david-cameron-james-foley-beheading-suspect-increasingly-likely-british-citizen-video

His voice is stressed in the video and his immediate response sounds somewhat muddled. The intention to prevent extremist British citizens who wish to fight with and for isis from travelling abroad and to keep them here seems problematic.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:41 am



Young men, especially those between 16 - 20, have always left this country to fight for what they deem to be the 'correct' political causes. I sight the Spanish Civil War 1934-38 as a prime example.

Religion is just as attractive, if not more-so, to those steeped in such delusions.

It might seem attractive to them from the distance. I doubt the same reaction to the realities when they encounter a 'real' war scenario. The ghastliness and obscenities of war are not 'parlour games' on a video screen. Many of them will die. And for what will be a lost cause at the end. As for Paradise - Give me a break. Crying or Very sad

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sat Aug 23, 2014 8:32 pm

Well put, Atlas.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:07 pm

Yes, Atlas takes a humane view, but, on a practical level, with hundreds and thousands of potential psychopaths attracted by the prospect of killing, raping, committing genocide and beheading people in the emerging Islamic Caphilate state in Iraq and Syria, and wishing to leave Europe to go there, it might be best to let them go, and not come back. If they were travelling in the opposite direction it would be more worrying.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:26 pm

Earlier in the thread, Hinch asked "How the hell do you adress issues like this?" and the question has only become more relevant.

Jordan is shocked by the way it's pilot was mudered. Jordan has long been something of an oasis of civilised values in a troubled region. Those values have to prevail even in the most gruesome of circumstances.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:34 pm

Only the Arab's can sort out what is a Arabic problem. Their religious divide is at the root of the divisions coupled with the peaceful and the not so amongst them. Jordan has a mild form of democracy which is completely at odds with the ISIL doctrines and thus cannot be reconciled by peaceful means. Jordan will learn that such as ISIL do not respect national boundaries and once in a position of power will destroy any other alternative doctrine for its own ends. It's a form of nationalism much like the Nazi regime and in this case even more vile and corrupt than was the NSDAP in its 'final solutions'. Appeasement does not work. Non-violence (while laudable) is also a lost cause. There will come a time when the Jordanians will have to make a choice. Hopefully it will be the right one. Until then - one can only wait and see.Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Smile Smile
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:12 am

I'd like to agree with your analysis, and it is true to an extent, but Isis and Isis-like groups, organisations and mind sets are no longer just an arab problem, in the rather unstable world situation, it's become a lot larger now. Mistakes and neglects by many of the world powers over many years have contributed to things becoming so entrenched and difficult now. We need more people who can see into things, are better informed, and recognise the failings of their own world-views in politics.

Jordan is having to respond to the deadly threat on it's borders, borders with Syria and Iraq. If americas' war aim was to bomb Iraq back into the stone age, they seem to have managed that and more, and if not opened up the gates of hell, at least cracked the ceiling of it. Syria is sheer horror, Perhaps it's not a situation that is going to heal up easily or locally at all, with it's resonances in Africa, Europe, and elsewhere.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:19 pm

With the dis-affected (for whatever reason) and the power-monger and in an age when the acquisition of weapons and the lack of will to police properly there should be no surprise when those that can 'do'.
ISIS/ISIL have no other agenda than to create mayhem for the rewards it will bring the 'few'. There is nothing altruistic regarding the 'end game' where the top echelons of these 'freaks' are concerned. It isn't for religious purpose or individual freedoms. It's plainly for 'power' - end of. They will wrap it up with pretty blue ribbons for the purposes of enticement and push the blame towards whatever is currently in vogue. But the reality for those masses drawn is only lacerated flesh, gross agony and multiple miseries and a death whereby (in reality) are no virginal handmaidens or Utopias.
Like all mad-dogs there is no treatment. Eradication has to be the end-game. Before they grow strong enough to eradicate us.
Syria - problem - Assad
Iraq - problem - Shiite government
Jordan/Gulf States etc - problem - Sunnis

Its a can of worms and one we should stay out of other than tacit support for what we consider to be the good guys.

If it gets out of hand we will then have to reconsider our options.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Smile

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:03 pm

Things do seem to be getting 'out of hand' now, with Islamic state beheading Christians en masse on the shore of the Mediterranean.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:14 am

No more so than before. Libya has been cracking up ever since they bumped off Gaddafi. Wherever there is no law or order then IS will attempt to fill the vacuum. It gives the impression that they are succeeding in their endeavors to create their caliphate. ISIL - Islam in Syria, Iraq and the Levant. Libya is part of the Levant. That was always their intention. One reason why the Egyptian Army had no intention of allowing Egypt to remain in the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood and why (given a good enough reason) they have responded to the latest murders and called on the rest of the world to help out.

We should stay out of it. It's an Arab fight. Between Arab tribes of differing beliefs. There's nothing in it for the West. We should concentrate on our problems here with our own nutcases. That should keep us busy for a while. When the situation becomes clearer i.e. when they have stopped butchering each other, perhaps then we should try and help out with reconstruction and rehabilitation. Until then - we wait and despair at the ignorance of humanity.
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:08 am

We in Europe would like to 'stay out of it', but events move on, in the middle east, Africa, and into Europe. What goes on 'behind the scenes' is the real story, but, we only get a vague impression. 

Manchester is on the 'hit list' of Islamic extremism, along with other european cities.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-31507845

The geo-political situation in the mediterranean harks back to unresolved alliances and conflicts of the second world war.

Experience shows that military intervention by the west has dubious results. Intelligence would seem to be the most useful response. Identification of individuals responsible for war crimes, followed by international efforts and methods to bring them to international justice might bring some element of civilisation to otherwise hopelessly barbaric situations.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:53 pm

International justice is an almost impossible concept. Justice - well what is that? It depends upon your own interpretation. The Nuremberg Trials were supposed to treat the world to 'international justice'. It was a farce in that only a very few were ultimately tried and appropriately dispatched. The remainder were keep in place to oversee and operate a country destroyed from within and without and without such would have taken many more decades to resurrect itself from a burden to the rest.
One man's justice is another man's crime. Who do you 'kill' in your quest for justice - the man who commits the act or the men who lay the plans? An eye for an eye? Where does that stop?
At the moment we are providing funds and the wherewithal to create an army from 'friendly' Arabs.
20,000 in all in order that 'they', in due course, can eradicate the canker from within. Meanwhile we try to contain the 'canker' by bombing and strafing from a distance. It's another 10 year plan. Meanwhile tens of thousands will perish by fair means or foul. Some world. Some justice.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:28 pm

It's almost impossible to get everyone to agree on any idea.

Due to the difficulties you describe, Atlas, the response of Jordan, bombing those it thinks responsible for burning their pilot; Egypt, those it thinks responsible for beheading it's citizens and similar 'retributions' are probably the nearest thing to justice.

It's anticipated even bigger numbers of refugees will soon flee Libya in boats, Islamic state 'sleepers' may be amongst them, Europe does not appear to be organised to deal with that, if it happens.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:18 pm

Of course not. Why would anyone promote economic/ sanctuary/refugee immigration to Europe (which already has sufficient of it's own problems) by spending a fortune fishing these unfortunates out of the sea.
Why? When all it does is promote more to follow. It doesn't make sense other as a humanitarian exercise. Does anyone in their right mind think we can accommodate the population of the Middle East within Europe's borders without all hell breaking loose? It's a non-starter.
As for 'fifth column' - it's an ideal conveyor-belt for the fanatic and has already been done. Unfortunately the people receiving these 'rescuees' are not qualified to pick out those lunatics and are only interested in moving them on to the next 'clearing' station where again they are unqualified etc etc. And the band rolls on - - - -. Ten years minimum. Could possibly go on for fifty - who knows.
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:06 am

Mr. Obama has a theory that moderate muslim leaders are so boring that no one takes much notice of them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-politics/11421767/Barack-Obama-Muslim-elders-too-boring-to-win-Isil-propaganda-war.html

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:11 pm

I'm at loss to know why anyone listens to them in the first place. Haven't they got a brain of their own? Shouldn't their own intelligence tell them what is good for them? No-one is born a slave - so why become one?
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:31 pm

These burning to death and beheading videos seem to be attracting the young ladies,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31554844

I'm at a loss to understand it too, perhaps I'm out of touch with modern youth culture.

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Re: The Black Flag rises.

Post  Atlas on Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:42 pm

They have watched too much reality television and played too many idiotic video games to be able to differentiate between the reality and the make-believe. Naive and foolish is a trait of the young which in my day was tempered by being 'street-wise' from an early age. Today's closeted environment is a dangerous way of doing things. Life, real life, is a precarious occupation which if groomed correctly brings the majority through relatively unscathed. For those whose 'reality' comes through a lap-top screen it is nothing but a potential future nightmare. Again sad really - but who will stand up and be counted?? Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: The Black Flag rises.

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