Preparing the ground.

Atlas Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:50 am

It looks as if the Syrian Opposition Forces are slowly losing the battle for their particular 'brands' of 'freedom as can be seen by the ratcheting up of the 'West's' rhetoric from todays press. Now we have 'proof' of chemical weapons being used 'against' the Opposition and therefore the arming of the rebel forces is being considered - as is a limited 'no-fly-zone'. It's the beginning of 'our' intervention on the side of 'freedom' from 'oppression'/dictators/genocide and any other emotive descriptive word the side of 'good' has to offer.
I think we might have been 'here' before. pale

Chill37 Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:24 am

Atlas wrote:It looks as if the Syrian Opposition Forces are slowly losing the battle for their particular 'brands' of 'freedom as can be seen by the ratcheting up of the 'West's' rhetoric from todays press. Now we have 'proof' of chemical weapons being used 'against' the Opposition and therefore the arming of the rebel forces is being considered - as is a limited 'no-fly-zone'. It's the beginning of 'our' intervention on the side of 'freedom' from 'oppression'/dictators/genocide and any other emotive descriptive word the side of 'good' has to offer.
I think we might have been 'here' before.

Yep we have been here before not so long ago.

Forgive me for asking, but where were the chemical weapons used? When were they used?

I sense the 'hawks' are circling again.

Atlas Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:59 pm

Who knows chill37 - in fairyland, at breakfast time, with Martian bed-knobs attached. It matters not. Intervention is on the cards. Turkey will suffer most as she becomes the West's buffer zone. Jordan and Lebanon and Israel will no doubt be dragged in - and the hounds of war will run amok across the sand dunes of the Middle East and North Africa - because we haven't yet learned that war benefits no man. And the Fifth Crusade begins. Obscenity, gross ignorance and stupidity will abound. It's madness - the lot of it. Sad

Prudence Tempered Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:11 am

It's difficult to disagree with any of that, Atlas. As we have found to our cost in the past the problem is often not the 'winning' on the military intervention but in 'winning the peace'.

One point you make that I would take slight issue with is your description of this as a Crusade (with a capital C). If anything this would be an attempt to save Muslim lives rather than end them - as in Kosovo.

Because, in the end, your fears about intervening in Syria fail to address the main point. The truth is that yet another vicious, murderous, socialist governments is butchering its own people, and using all methods of repression and intimidation to do so.

Hinch Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:43 am

Armadeddon out of here.

Hinch Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:49 am

Prudence Tempered wrote:It's difficult to disagree with any of that, Atlas. As we have found to our cost in the past the problem is often not the 'winning' on the military intervention but in 'winning the peace'.

One point you make that I would take slight issue with is your description of this as a Crusade (with a capital C). If anything this would be an attempt to save Muslim lives rather than end them - as in Kosovo.

Because, in the end, your fears about intervening in Syria fail to address the main point. The truth is that yet another vicious, murderous, socialist governments is butchering its own people, and using all methods of repression and intimidation to do so.

There ends today's party political party broadcast.

Good job it's only 'vicious, murderous, socialist governments' who go around butchering people. Thank God for the Free World I say and God Bless America.

Prudence Tempered Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:58 am

I agree that it isn't just VMS governments that slaughter their own civilians - although there does appear to be a huge correlation.

Hinch Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:26 pm

Granted that what became the USSR hardly led by example although not without historical precedent going back eons.

The term 'socialist' when applied to Syria and many others is not without difficulty although the German Nazi Party also tried to hide behind this particular badge.

The arming and support of despotic states by western 'democracies' has much to answer for and in this respect, the champion of the free world, the good old US of A leads the way.

We would do well to keep out of it although I doubt that we will. In fact, signs are that the decision has already been made. (Cue camera for Talking Head mouthing platitudes about 'our brave servicemen and women' and Britain's mission to restore democracy. In other words, replace one set of despots with another.)

A tinderbox about to be ignited methinks.

Prudence Tempered Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:59 pm

I'm intrigued that the crimes against humanity carried out by the USSR can be described as "hardly leading by example" and that the German Nazi Party could be though to have 'hidden' behind anything, let alone the actual name of the party.

Less surprising is that you pick up on a single word used to describe the current Syrian regime. All the other words I used were subjective and yet the one you seize on is purely factual.

And if you think for one moment that this is a "tinderbox about to be ignited" then you have been turning a blind eye to what has been going on there for years.

teamplayer2 Sun Jun 23, 2013 3:08 pm

Prudence Tempered a lot of governments have blood on their hands. Even the coalition in this country with all the cutbacks. Of course the coalition could send in our armed forces to sort out the problem in Syria. Get a lot of them maimed and killed and make the rest redundant after welcoming the armed forces home and after a parade.

Hinch Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:20 pm

The Syrian government is about as socialist as the last Labour government was.

As for my reference to tinderbox, I am of course referring to the effect of an overt rather than a covert involvement by western 'democracies'.

The Taliban will have a field day as will the various arms companies. We have no place there but that argument has never prevented our involvement in foreign campaigns.

If you see the problem as merely being an example of 'the perils of socialism', then you are taking a very myopic and over simplistic view.

Terrible crimes are committed against humanity under the cloak of freedom, democracy and socialism. Freedom is perhaps the most pernicious of all. It invariably means the warped belief that by using it, you are imbued with the moral and political authority to impose your will on others.

johnb Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:05 pm

I see a Saddam Hussein situation coming on;

In 2002 when I was working in th "industry", my colleagues were horrified at the impending war, not because Saddam was a 'good egg' but because he was considerably less rotten than the alternatives.

Assad is not a 'good egg' but I suspect he is much better than all the current alternatives.

Someone has already commented on America's stance, "Will they not be happy until they have made every Middle Eastern state an Islamic Fundamentalist fiefdom?"

Atlas Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:18 am

And therein, as johnb thus describes, lies the problem. We could of course take a different view and that would be the view as taken by some of the present bystanders which is -as both Stalin and Hitler once thought regards WW2 - if we sit back long enough they will reduce each others capacity to trouble us when and if their personal battle ever comes to an end. Ostensibly this a battle about which branch of Islam rules. It is not about 'freedom' or 'democracy' as we know it in the west. It's about Shiah and Sunni on the one hand and tribalism on the other none of which we, the west, should have a say in or about other than for them 'all' to respect human rights in basic terms. We should stay out of it - and hope that the best, most reasonable entity wins. Sad

Hinch Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:08 am

Bin Laden would be overjoyed at the prospect at our deeper involvement.

Prudence Tempered Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:24 am

Hinch wrote:If you see the problem as merely being an example of 'the perils of socialism', then you are taking a very myopic and over simplistic view.

Well, of course I don't. But in the week that the official death toll has topped 100,000 and the number of refugees fleeing the country has reached 10% it's certainly a factor that can't be ignored - except for those for whom it is an inconvenient truth. The fact that the Syrian government is carrying out mass extermination of its opponents is not in contradiction to its socialism - as can be seen in many other examples, it is a direct consequence of it.

It is also the week in which Comrade Mugabe is stealing yet another election. They have much in common.

Guest Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:32 pm

Prudence Tempered wrote: extract ....The fact that the Syrian government is carrying out mass extermination of its opponents is not in contradiction to its socialism - as can be seen in many other examples, it is a direct consequence of it.

It is also the week in which Comrade Mugabe is stealing yet another election. They have much in common.

Iran is officially partnering the Syrian government, which seems to be a relatively unpublicised force

Iran and Syria sign $3.6bn oil deal

31/07/13 http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/07/20137316432664151.html

The corruption and horrors in Zimbabwe have been almost ignored for decades. The country has no strategic clout nor any resources of "intervention" interest. One of the few things it has in common with Syria is huge death toll and refugees ...

Atlas Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:40 am

Zanu Pf and all its supporters were more than happy enough to murder, assault or otherwise dispense with most of the 'indigenous' 'white' owned farms and industries since the 'Smith' regime were harried out of power with the inevitable result that the 'Rhodesian' economy went into free-fall and must in many respects take 'some' of the blame for their country's present predicament. One mustn't forget also that one of the main problems with Zimbabwe is 'tribal' - as with many other countries at present in conflict with themselves - which in itself promotes internal disputes, corruption and despotism. You may consider yourself to be your brothers keeper - but in many cases your brother doesn't want you. Strategic interests or not - as the case may be.

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