The British Army

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The British Army

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:19 pm

Men dying of heatstroke in training. Why would that happen? Does the British Army lack an understanding of British terrain and climate? Do they lack an understanding of the limits of what conditions will kill people?

Also, too many ex-soldiers not getting enough support, committing suicide or getting into trouble with alcohol and the law.

We ask a lot of servicemen, does our society give back enough in return?


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Re: The British Army

Post  Chill37 on Mon Jul 15, 2013 1:36 pm

cyfrifia wrote:Men dying of heatstroke in training. Why would that happen? Does the British Army lack an understanding of British terrain and climate? Do they lack an understanding of the limits of what conditions will kill people?

Also, too many ex-soldiers not getting enough support, committing suicide or getting into trouble with alcohol and the law.

We ask a lot of servicemen, does our society give back enough in return?


Few diferent valid points there.

Yes clearly some urgent answers need to be sought over the two TA deaths. Where heatstoke affected these men plus one other. Surely the Army knows about tempretures condering the climate in Afganistan.

Yes I have read articles about service personnel suffering from serious issues such as alcohol and obviously the tragic deaths. Maybe as you say Cyfrifia they are not getting assistance to adjust back to civvy street and fighting in arenas such as Falklands and Iraq to name but two.

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Re: The British Army

Post  Atlas on Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:04 am

In the first instance it's about 'endurance'. If you can't 'hack it' it's pointless applying or participating. It's NOT a Girl Guides Union.
In the second the men that apply for this sort of endurance training are trying to prove a point to themselves and are prepared to go beyond the extreme limits.
Thirdly the Army KNOW the risks, as do the men,. We are training men to do extraordinary things. That's what makes them the best available for the type of 'job' they are called upon to do.
Like the tightrope walker across the Grand Canyon - they know the risks.
Foolish from somes point of view. Essential life-style for others.

As for PTS. If you don't want to see HELL - don't join the Army.
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Re: The British Army

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:48 am

Atlas wrote:
Thirdly the Army KNOW the risks, as do the men

Do they?

It looks like whoever was responsible underestimated the effect of exposure and suddenly rising temperatures, a basic error. The Territorial Army has to know and understand its own territory and climate in detail, it can make the difference between life and death.

Six soldiers collapsed on this training exercise, two died, a third is in 'serious condition' in hospital. There are risks involved, but, this is enough of an incident to give serious pause for thought.

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Re: The British Army

Post  Atlas on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:16 am

Again I disagree and take issue. Had the men been in the Gobi Desert with extremely limited supply the situation would have been the same (but for the fact these men could have been rescued had they wanted to be because they were in Breacon). The fact is to fail was not on their agenda. To fail would have been the end of their aspiration to be 'One of the Best'. That was never going to be the case. Survival is what the course is all about. To survive in the most extreme circumstances and get the job done. THAT'S what makes them apart from the rest - and in their eyes 'a winner' (or die in the attempt).
Nobody forces them to do it. They can pack it in at any time and be no less thought of.
We train these small bands of 'brothers' to act on our behalf in the most outrageously dangerous situations and to 'win'[ through' - -and for them to remain anonymous throughout. That they have courage is without doubt. The only issue I would take is the fine line line between courage and lunacy - that's all.
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Re: The British Army

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:45 am

A hiker who met the soldiers shortly before they died said “The two soldiers then proceeded and the one that was helping the weaker one was telling us it was OK, they would get water at the stream further ahead which was marked on the map. Well, we know from our own experience that those streams were no more than a line of arid rocks, there was no water to be had from them.”

I can see your point of view there, Atlas, but I still think a thoughtful investigation is needed. Hopefully that will happen in due course.

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Re: The British Army

Post  Hinch on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:58 am

The army is crap at looking after the health and well being of its personnel past and present. You can't just expect death as some sort of occupational hazard when you are not even in a combat zone. Sensible precautions should have been in place bearing in mind the conditions.

Nobody expects these weekend-warriors to be feather bedded but those in command should have been aware of the risks and current status of the troops under them. Not the first time this has happened, nor will it be the last.

OK to test people close to the limits of endurance but you still have a legal and moral responsibility to those under your command.

Choppers could and should have been in the air to keep a distant but watchful eye on those who were struggling.

Nothing cissy about collapsing from heatstroke, fatigue and dehydration. You don't have to die or be at point of death to prove you are tough enough.

"Nobody becomes a hero by dying for their country. You become a hero by making the other dumb bastard die for theirs." General George S Patton.
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Re: The British Army

Post  Atlas on Fri Jul 19, 2013 1:32 am

Legal? Moral? Where oh where does one ever get the idea that those two words have any bearing upon what transpires in SAS training. Sorry Hinch but the fact is that although the 'law' of our country would make issue the real facts bear no relevence in this particular enterprise - not that anyone would say so or admit it.

Laudable be your stance -. Bless your little cotton socks ( and big floopy hat).Wink 
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Re: The British Army

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:36 pm

What is legal and moral may be complicated and arguable, but if we lose sight of what is right and what is wrong, what are we fighting for? Survival?

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Re: The British Army

Post  Atlas on Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:31 am

Yes. And considerably more than you know. The war on terror - as it is so euphemistically called - is far more than that. It's a war for resources of which are getting less and less as each decade passes. The west's opponents may use the cloak of seeking freedoms (and most of the uninitiated fundamentally believe that) but the true purpose is resources - at any cost. Frequently rabble-roused by religious fervour and propaganda that bears little resemblance to the actual truth. Our defense forces train for offensive operations on the basis of 'who dares wins' and that can only be attained by going 'all' the way.
Get wise or get dead. Your children's future will depend on it.
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Re: The British Army

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