Why so vicious?

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Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:44 pm

A mother was walking along with her 5 year-old daughter and 3 year-old son when she was pushed to the ground from behind and attacked by a gang of women, who kicked and punched, fracturing facial bones around the eyes and inflicting other injuries to her face and body.

Police say the assault was "random and unprovoked".


Imagine if that had happened when you were walking with your mother when you were 3 or 5 years old, and what effect that would have. What has happened to these four young women who made this attack? Why so vicious?

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/83362/woman-attacked-in-front-of-her-children

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:51 am

Why is a good question cyfrifia.  Just seems to be the norm for some stupid criminals.

There was a case of a 90 year old lady being attacked in Bolton. Had a security alarm system call button torn away from her and she was left on the floor by her attacker in her own home. These criminals must get a power trip from it. No need for it.

Why this lady was attacked in front of her own children is another question on what is happening in our society. We are just soft on criminals and need to swing it back the other way. Criminals have more rights than the law abiding people of this country by the looks of things and think they can just get away with it without getting proper justice.

The excuses have just gone too thin for my liking. Give them a jail sentence to fit and no time off.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:26 am



It's true that our justice system isn't working properly. When people are given 'community service', the paperwork and arrangements for that often go wrong, and the 'sentence' is never completed. The 'service user' is unlikely to complain about this, but it leaves them with the impression that the justice system is a joke.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Dalelad on Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:11 pm


Although I did a quick search and the report I found showed that community sentences are far cheaper than jail and there are lower reoffending rates from those with community sentences as compared to custodial ones.

Sweeping statements like 'it's true that our justice system isn't working properly' are easy to make but not as easy to prove.


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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Oct 29, 2013 2:05 pm



"isn't working properly" depends what standards you expect.

The standard we need is that innocent people can reliably walk about and get on with their lives without being assaulted and injured. Criminals need to be convinced that they will be caught, and that the penalties will make them wish they had never attacked someone. For instance, if someone pushes a random victim to the ground and kicks them in the face, fracturing the facial bones, they should at least pay the bill for all medical treatment as well as damages.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Chill37 on Wed Oct 30, 2013 1:36 pm

Now this has happened

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/83393/horrifying-ordeal-for-woman-as-thief-forces-bag-over-her-head

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Oct 30, 2013 3:12 pm

These crimes indicate an element of planning, with evil thoughts stewing in damaged brains. Something is very wrong within the minds of those who cause such trauma and injury, often for very little 'reward'.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Chill37 on Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:40 pm

Yup indeed.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:22 am

Neanderthals breeding yet more Neanderthals. What a pretty picture such paints. Perhaps immigration and a truly cosmopolitan breeding sector might help change things as our society goes along its wayward path - who knows?Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes 

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  teamplayer2 on Thu Oct 31, 2013 9:20 am

What about the criminals who have come to this country and use the Human Rights Act to stay here after committing brutal crimes Atlas? Why are they protected?

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:02 pm

The UK hasn't reacted altogether well to the mass immigration of recent years, and it has contributed to crime by importing criminals and criminal networks, but there were underlying and unresolved social problems even before the decades of mass immigration. Long term unemployment, poor education, fairly useless social mechanisms for dealing with drug rehab and all the other things like the care system etc.

The pressures on Europe are escalating, immigration being one of them, and, despite the so called 'economic recovery' in London, the UK can expect to face some quite long term social problems.

A serious rethink is needed to face up to the policing of a society under long term stress, should emphasis and resources be moved to solving crimes of violence against the person, to make people safer, or, stick with the traditional emphasis on property and financial crime?

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:00 am

I suppose it depends on 'how' you view life and human beings. Leaders (and by that I mean those put into positions of control by others) have always taken the view that there will always be 'some' whose depth of intelligence will be so shallow as to lead them to violence against everything lacking as they do the capabilities of rational and logical thought and seeing violence as the only positive in their lives. Therefore there will always be 'some' who will enact bloody mayhem upon others. Whereas property and wealth (the measure of ones standing by the rest) must be protected to ensure stability within the given 'grouping'. Ergo - the present legal system which leans towards the latter as a priority - and it comes with a cheaper price tag.

To put the citizen first (and always first) would require most of the worlds global assets to be brought to bear towards personalized education to ensure a totally well-balanced human being emerges in every single case - or alternatively another 500 years of evolution - whichever is the cheaper option.

One can always wish -.Rolling Eyes Wink Wink 

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:35 am

Primary responsibility and duty of a civilised society (Are we a state, a country, a nation state?) is to protect it's citizens (or are we subjects?) from physical violence.

The secondary duty/responsibility to protect property and money of citizens/subjects is a bit more complicated, as this seems to depend on the banking system.

A citizen/subject cannot really enjoy property and money if they are disabled as a result of a violent attack, so, the emphasis of policing should be against violent attacks on the person.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:06 am



Yes indeed but the difference between the rhetoric and intention and indeed enactment can be vast.
In our society (UK) we are subjects first then citizens - not that this should make any difference to the intent to primarily protect the individual. But we know from experience that such protection is not a paramount where governments are concerned - the protection of the 'state' comes first and the titular head of our state are the Royal family and the state's structures - and at a pinch - the state structure will always come first on the basis that one cannot have a disciplined workable society without that 'structure' firmly in place and fully protected. I think my point is made - QED.Question



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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:07 am

The point you make is about pressure on police from those with the most power, for the protection of their own lives and property. Specialist agencies are in place for the protection of Royals and Political leaders. The pressure from the public and their representatives should be for protection from intimidation and injury of vulnerable and ordinary members of society as they go about their daily business and at home. The police fulfill both roles to an extent, it's a balancing act, one that needs more pressure on for the protection of the ordinary citizen/subject. If people are intimidated from using public spaces, or feel under threat in their homes, the fabric of society is damaged and the pressure is then on police to adopt methods of crown and riot control. Better to insist on correct policing priorities in the first place. Crimes of violence against the person should be deterred by a high probability of violent offenders being caught and their crimes treated with the abrupt severity and sentences they deserve, plus paying the medical bills of treating their victims. That would be fair justice and might make the streets, and the homes, of ordinary people safer.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:13 am

Oh Ar Captain. Un eye fer an eye and a tooth fer a tooth. Revenge methinks mi hearties.
And keep building the prisons. 75,000 and rising. That's the way to do it.Wink Crying or Very sad 

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:39 am

For what reason would you oppose an adjustment of police priorities and resources toward protecting people from violence? At the moment, many crimes of violence against the person are never solved, but with more focus and resources, they could be.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:50 pm

Care for the elderly. More hospitals. Better homes and many more of them. You want me to go on???

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:47 am

As you like, those are all important matters. I wasn't suggesting resources should be moved from such needs towards policing, rather that policing priorities should be adjusted away from property crime and towards preventing violence against the person. I do think that would be better for society in the long run.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Chill37 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:41 am

cyfrifia wrote:As you like, those are all important matters. I wasn't suggesting resources should be moved from such needs towards policing, rather that policing priorities should be adjusted away from property crime and towards preventing violence against the person. I do think that would be better for society in the long run.
But shouldn't all crime be investigated? Zero tolerance?

You say priorties should be shifted away from house crime, Good luck in telling that to some one whose house has been turned over by a low life?

Or all the 'bad guys' will think "hey lads lets turn over this house on the left, as the police wont be bothered investigatiing for a long time"

Heres a radical plan. Get rid of the Police Commissoner and his cronies and hangers on. But instead use that money to fund more police.

Or is that too simple.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:10 am

The term 'property crime' was vague and misleading. House burglary is a very personal crime, very close to being a crime of violence against the person, and must be high priority.

What I meant is that, if anyone is attacked and injured, that is simply not tolerated and becomes a top priority crime. The hard choices in policing priorities are difficult, but important to get right.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Chill37 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:40 pm

cyfrifia wrote:The term 'property crime' was vague and misleading. House burglary is a very personal crime, very close to being a crime of violence against the person, and must be high priority.

What I meant is that, if anyone is attacked and injured, that is simply not tolerated and becomes a top priority crime. The hard choices in policing priorities are difficult, but important to get right.
Yes hard choices do have to be made. But i am stil of the view that Zero tolerance is an better solution. Also full sentences to be given. Of some is convioted of murder and that carries a life sentence (25 years.) then give out the full 25 years sentence. No parole.

Simple.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:26 pm

Prison sentences should be fair and mean what they say, the present sentencing system is misleading. There is controversy over what 'zero tolerance' meant as used in America, but the upshot is to find a way to change public attitudes toward crime, basically to make people behave themselves and get used to behaving themselves. How that can usefully be adapted and applied in UK context is up for discussion.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Chill37 on Mon Nov 04, 2013 3:30 pm

Fair you say?

You get found guilty of killing a human being,.  You get jailed for the remainder of your life.

Seems fair to me

You are found guilty of child sex attacks.

You get jailed for life.

Fair to me.

Yes these are the most horrific of crimes.  So the sentence should fit.

So maxImum sentences imposed each time.  thats a deterent. That will change views.

As for drink driving for example.

First time caught lose your licence for say five years. Caught again banned for life. Or reduce the legal limit from 37 (is it?)
to half.

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Re: Why so vicious?

Post  Atlas on Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:52 am

So you would require we double the present budget for prisons and the prison services - because that is what your comments mean? Things are done for a reason. We might not like the reasoning but the cake isn't infinite. The slices are already wafer thin in most instances. Sometimes we must compromise - for everyones sake.Crying or Very sad 

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Re: Why so vicious?

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