Overcrowded England

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:54 pm

Mainly as a result of immigration and high immigrant birthrates, population density of England is now very high. Much, much higher than mainland Europe. That new population is still in process of spilling out from the London connurbation, on current trends, all of England is going to get even more overcrowded.

Boywonder comments. "The Home office says immigration has brought benefits to the UK. Shouldn't that be rephrased to say the UK has brought benefits to the immigrants? It's not like we see any benefits anyway with all the cutbacks to local services."

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/84540/england-overcrowded

An interesting point,  England is in process of becoming a country of immigrants as much as a country with immigrants. At the moment, the government is optimistic about an economic recovery. It's fairly obvious that all the systems, housing, medical, roads, education, prisons, all the necessities of a workable society and economy are overdue for an expensive, massive re-building, expansion and overhaul.

The future of England is now to some increasing extent in the hands of the immigrants it has absorbed, they have come here for a good life and to have children who will get good education and medicine.

In ancient times, England was invaded by immigrants from Europe, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans. The difference this time is that those were mainly single, pre-existing coherent societies with set ways of going on, and settled nicely after the usual pillage, slaughter, military campaigns and battles. This present day influx of immigrants is a mixture of cultures, with many different ways of going on. We can expect a few problems as they sort themselves out, but will we end up with a rainbow nation, or an unworkable mish-mash?

Those of us who prefer to get away from the madding crowd might think of heading for the hills, there is much of England considered uninhabitable, the high moors and coastlines with bad weather and flooding, but, depending how it goes, it might be better than cities with huge sprawling unmanageable populations.

How will it all work out? The scientists say that what distinguishes human from animal intelligence is the ability to contemplate the far future, perhaps it does need some thinking about.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:25 am


Modern day economies are based upon 'renewal' i.e. birthrates, young to old,better health and longevities. A country that cannot replace its population for future work and taxes etc is considered as unsustainable in the long run and therefore will become uneconomical providing itself with greater and greater problems. Immigration is seen as the answer. Therefore your concerns regarding the same must first allow for this - unless you have any other sound economic answers to compensate a halt or forced returns. Naturally the more 'people' the more call on services etc and the further the monies must be stretched (economists will counter that by quoting the extra revenue developed from the 'extra' people - always and accepting that those 'extra' people are contributing the same as the others) but the argument on that is still in the ball-park. I remain to be convinced that our membership of the E.U and 'all' that such encompasses (immigration being one) will be good for this country in the long run. I would prefer we had our own (properly structured) immigration policies than be at the beck and call of Europe and its crazy politicians.


And that doesn't mean I would consider voting for UKIP - just to let you know I am not impressed by volatile rhetoric.

avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:52 am

Atlas wrote:A country that cannot replace its population for future work and taxes etc is considered as unsustainable in the long run and therefore will become uneconomical providing itself with greater and greater problems. Immigration is seen as the answer.

Sorry to hear that the English are having such a problem reproducing themselves. Too much English politeness and reticence perhaps.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Hinch on Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:13 pm



I feel similarly Atlas. I detest the quasi-racist "Little Englander" mentality that UKIP represents but wish we had a clearly understood immigration policy based on sustainability and a legal right to control our own borders.

I have seen many positive sides of immigration from the Irish, Ukranians, Poles, Hungarians, West Indians, Mauritius, Asians etc and worked for 30-odd years in the NHS that would have collapsed without them.

UKIP seems to lack people of any intellectual depth who can structure a cogent debate based on facts and figures. They all seem to have a total downer on Europe, the HRA, Health and Safety, brown people, state benefits etc without being able to explain why in words of more than one syllable or in sentences of more than three words unless one of the word begins with the letter 'F'.

Still, they have growing support in the absence of any convincing alternatives put forward by the other parties and I expect them to do well in the European elections.


avatar
Hinch
Spaceship Commander
Spaceship Commander

Posts : 1927
Join date : 2012-09-05
Location : Stradhoughton

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:02 pm


The standard of political debate could be a bit more intellectual.



Conservative minister, Anna Soubry, has apologised for saying, on BBC's Andrew Marr Show, that Nigel Farage's facial expressions made him look like someone who enjoys having a finger put up his bottom.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/dec/22/soubry-nigel-farage-finger-bottom?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

What she gets up to on her days off is entirely her own affair.


cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:17 am

cyfrifia wrote:
Atlas wrote:A country that cannot replace its population for future work and taxes etc is considered as unsustainable in the long run and therefore will become uneconomical providing itself with greater and greater problems. Immigration is seen as the answer.

Sorry to hear that the English are having such a problem reproducing themselves. Too much English politeness and reticence perhaps.


We are (indigenous population) at the moment producing less than the desired 2 . 3 offspring per family unit and to some extent this is as a result of economic/ personal trends i.e. careers before family, housing costs, lack of properly paid jobs etc etc etc and immigration is seen as a sticking plaster to cover those shortfalls - which is why the outlook for this country's economy is seen as good to very strong over the longer term - however there is always a downside to every scheme and too many, too quickly (people of different cultures) may well prove to be a mistake in the short term resulting in other problems i.e. social disorder amongst certain cultures and this in poorly integrated areas - Rochdale being one. We won't escape the actions our governments take - who let's face it - are only in the game for the quick returns and the short term. Sad isn't it. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes 
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:17 pm

Atlas wrote:We won't escape the actions our governments take - who let's face it - are only in the game for the quick returns and the short term. Sad isn't it. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes 

It is, but at least we can talk about it (immigration) now, if we want to. Long-term youth unemployment for indigenous English people may be hidden amongst the statistics, but is seriously affecting those young people, their attitudes, and also their families. Political commentators say immigrants do the jobs English people won't do, but that is a superficial and misleading way of pretending to explain a situation that is a deep problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-25559089

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Sat Jan 04, 2014 1:25 am


I well remember the first influx (not the first but the first one that was instituted by our government) of West Indians in the 1950's who it was said were necessary to take up the jobs that our people wouldn't or didn't want to do. This was true at the time - a time I might add when we had full employment - the dole figures I well remember numbered less than 250,000. I don't think the same is true today in exactly the same way. Then the dole was really subsistence level and working was the only way to properly bring up a family.

Today if one looks at the welfare available and the fact that mum & dad's bank account has far more in it than was the case in the mid 20th century, the opportunity to do little or nothing has much more prominence.
Again I have to lay the blame at the feet of politicians who have pandered to the 'social/fair' society to the extent that it is now very unfair on the rest of us who are picking up the tab. You can't make people work, regardless of wanting to or not, but you can certainly make it difficult for them to survive if they dont. BUT FIRST - the work has to be available - which let's face it it isn't. So where to go from there - - - -????

avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Jan 04, 2014 11:07 am

Atlas wrote:This was true at the time -

True-ish.

The decision to import people from the West Indies may not really have been about shortage of labour, which could have been managed, more to do with ideas of sharing and Commonwealth, after the world wars and end of Empire.


All things in moderation, including population. History shows much of England was naturally swamp, lake and river floodplain. With the recent tidal surge and flood warnings, so much housing at risk, and the contentious subject of climate change, the permanently habitable area of England is only so much. King Canute may be needed again to hold back the tides.

New immigrants could be asked to bring a hundred thousand tons of granite or similar heavy duty bedrock per person.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Sun Jan 05, 2014 1:10 am

cyfrifia wrote:
True-ish.

The decision to import people from the West Indies may not really have been about shortage of labour, which could have been managed, more to do with ideas of sharing and Commonwealth, after the world wars and end of Empire.                    


No.  The real truth behind the decision to introduce Commonwealth immigrants was purely an economic one. Nothing to do with sharing - doesn't compute with the politicians of the times. We had at the time a massive re-building programme underway, housing mainly. All the younger end were making for the building sites where good money was available to those whose showed promise or were prepared to put in the hours.
There really was a massive shortage of other non/semi skilled workers, bus drivers, clippies, street cleaners, utility nurses and many other trades and occupations. There were far more jobs available than people to do them which was having a tendency towards bigger wages and inflation. The latter couldn't be allowed to happen for it would have thrown the economy into freefall. The answer was - more people. Mainly young males and females, unmarried preferably. Ergo - Windrush and the rest is history. Smile

avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:02 pm

Thanks, Atlas, I'll find out more about post-war politics when I have time.

On the face of it, Windrush looks badly thought out, leading to the Notting Hill riots.

The impression is that our politicians are useless at immigration policy. It appears decisions are made on economic data, without much reference to social reality, consent of the general public, or any such suitable arrangements.

Sheer weight of numbers makes the future look overcrowded now, which brings a range of problems.

How much really suitable land is there in England for new housing and development needed to go with it? There's a fair amount of high moorland, river floodplain, forestry and agricultural land, national parks and nature reserves.

From a wider European perspective, it would make more sense to build new towns for immigrants in France, where they have a lot of suitable land, and better climate too.

Plans are being developed for building over the countryside.
http://www.todmordennews.co.uk/news/local/calderdale-s-green-belt-could-be-lost-1-5986035
A way forward to reduce the population is to send the elderly abroad where care for them is cheaper.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25438325

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Mon Jan 06, 2014 1:42 am

You will find that in housing development there are many, many exec directors whose allegiances are to money and the Tory Party - so green belt intrusions are to be expected - and in their case - desired. Rolling Eyes 

As for Care Abroad for the Elderly - Not a problem providing it's agreeable to those concerned and not by government dictate.
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:30 am

Atlas wrote:green belt intrusions are to be expected

Yes, plans are being made. The need for more housing is a blunt one, and there is money to be made so it looks inevitable within a while.

For those who remember English landscape as it used to be, so much of it has disappeared already, it is sad to see it go. When it's gone, it's gone.

For people who never really bothered with it, they probably won't notice much.

At least the then English won't be able to go round lecturing other countries about deforestation and the destruction of wildlife and ecology. Some of them feel rather embarrassed about doing that already.


Native people looking at laptop
Ah yes, you see these English people were dispossessed of their lands, their trees cut down and their fields built over. All there is concrete and tarmac and the roar of traffic, the wild animals were killed. The very earth there shudders with the sound of fracking, must be awful. Perhaps we could help them with some sort of educational project? No, too late for them, ah well.


Last edited by cyfrifia on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:19 pm

As the flooding situation in the Somerset Levels area goes on, and more statements are made by Government, Environment Agency, local people there and Prince Charles, it becomes apparent there is simply not the will or the money to make it a fully habitable area again as it once was.

The way British society and politics are arranged simply does not have land management as priority. Every pound the Environment Agency spends has to be cost efficient, not land efficient, there is a difference.

England continues to become a little bit smaller, a bit more crowded, and it looks like it will get wetter too.


Last edited by cyfrifia on Thu Feb 06, 2014 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Thu Feb 06, 2014 1:06 am

I don't think that in the last 2,000 years the Somerset Levels have ever been fully habitable and there will have been times when the water levels have been the same as now if not higher. If, due to a gradual climatic change, this country is in the future going to experience the type of weather we have had in the last few years then we, the inhabitants, will have to tailor our needs to whatever befalls us. We shall for example have to stop building on flood plains or alternatively construct houses like those in Holland, Iraq and Bangladesh to name but a few where the anticipated water levels are taken into account. The planet is in constant flux and I might add 'in charge'. We are simply trustees. Time we got our heads on straight dropped the arrogance and used a bit of common sense.
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Feb 08, 2014 11:09 am

Common sense isn't applied as it was when society depended more directly on the land for farming. Typically short term, quick fix economic decisions have resulted in housing built in flood plains, neglected maintenance of drainage and sea defence, loss of forest that protected and improved drainage.

Countries with greater landmass literally have more room for mistakes, overcrowded England is more fragile, a bit of bad weather has caused a lot of problems. A modern, densely populated country constantly needs a lot of attention paid to everything, employment, education, healthcare, transport, all have to be in full working order all the time.

The Victorians had the labor and engineering to build for durability, railways, lighthouses and sea defences that have lasted till now. We have a loss of the practical knowhow and connection we might call common sense, an increasingly urban population disconnected from the land.

A major re-think could develop a long term plan for England. If the most suitable land was designated for farming, natural marshland designated for wildlife and reedbeds, housing built in well drained sunny situations, forest planted on the tops, canal and coastal ferries running regularly for communications, that sort of thing.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:56 am

Methinks you are perhaps reading far too much into the problem cyfrifia. Dictators may accomplish some of the things you mentioned but not democracies. Without delving the present problems arise mainly from a lack of proper maintenance. The 'Dawlish' incident a combination of unusual weather and sea conditions and doubtless a deterioration of the composites of the materials used in the initial constructions. I have numerous Victorian structures of a similar nature and without severe maintenance at 20-30 year intervals they too would succumb to such trials. Nothing, as how substantial it may seem to the eye, lasts forever.
As for the Somerset levels. Yes they would have flooded but - to stop or curtail the dredging which has previously been given high priority was bound to exacerbate the problems come unusual climatic conditions. Again - lack of maintenance. We have similar problems here every winter with drainage culverts and ditches not being cleared properly or on a regular basis. Money is tight and councils cut corners. Land owners are also culpable in many instances. I see where your post is coming from but I think you are taking a sledgehammer to swat a fly. Careful cautious planning for future climatic change will be necessary - but as the old bull said to the young bull who had spotted a herd of young heifers in the field and suggest they charge across and 'have one or two'. "No lad - let's just mosey gently over and 'have the lot'. Wink Wink 
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Feb 09, 2014 10:50 am

Atlas wrote:Dictators may accomplish some of the things you mentioned but not democracies.

Long term landscape management is well within the power of a democracy. We already have some arrangements in place with national parks, green belt, sea and flood defences. It's been allowed to lapse to some extent, at a time when it is needed more than ever.

More forest would be a good start, pretty much essential really. Tree roots help rain to sink into the ground, slowing the flow of surface rainwater. Forest on surrounding upland used to slow the flow into the Somerset levels, but has mostly gone since the drainage system was devised.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:05 am

cyfrifia wrote: Long term landscape management is well within the power of a democracy. We already have some arrangements in place with national parks, green belt, sea and flood defences. It's been allowed to lapse to some extent, at a time when it is needed more than ever.

More or less what I said although democracies would have to take on special powers to cover a lot of your argument.

cyfrifia wrote: More forest would be a good start, pretty much essential really. Tree roots help rain to sink into the ground, slowing the flow of surface rainwater. Forest on surrounding upland used to slow the flow into the Somerset levels, but has mostly gone since the drainage system was devised.

Again CPO's and money - in lands that are rural - Opps - sorry Conservative areas. No money in nice forests.

avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:30 pm

Is this chat about flooding, land management and politics relevant to Rochdale? Looks like it's relevant everywhere, depending on patterns of weather and population.

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:34 am

Anything which requires your money and resources is relevant to everyone, Rochdale included. Unless of course you are hankering after de-volution or Independence. The forum will do so much better if it is less parochial and prepared to enter into debate which affects us all. I know Rochdale is a very interesting place with lots to do and talk about but I doubt it would hold sufficient following if it stuck 'only' to its environs and what took place there. Fair fortune. Wink Very Happy 
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:38 am

Rochdale is a bit of a place to itself, with it's own concerns and perhaps not very aware of or interested in how it is connected into the wider pattern of things, fairly typical of towns in the area. We are all influenced by and involved in the wider state of the nation and so on, but often it's difficult to see how that works, matters or is relevant at local level. Often people feel they can't do anything to influence the bigger picture, so what's the point in thinking about it? Pity we don't seem to get much interest here from Rochdale people, maybe that will change when the new forum type thingy happens.

Two people a month are taken to A&E after dog attacks in Rochdale, is that about average for a town that size?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/figures-compiled-rochdale-observer-show-6709169

cyfrifia
Time Lord
Time Lord

Posts : 3020
Join date : 2012-09-16
Location : Todmorden

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Atlas on Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:06 am



There isn't a single thing that transpires in Westminster that doesn't affect you and everyone else in the country. Try to remember that the people who rule your lives haven't got the wherewithall to do it without you first asking them to and you providing the wherewithall to proceed. If that isn't relevant to your life then I don't know what is. Small island mentality will only ultimately reduce you to living in a cardboard box. Therefore my previous statements stand. Broaden your horizons and you broaden the discussion and you may find that many more people will come on-board. Isolationism gets you nowhere and makes you ignorant in the process. Rolling Eyes Very Happy Very Happy
avatar
Atlas
Starfleet Commander
Starfleet Commander

Posts : 2909
Join date : 2012-09-06
Location : Wales

Back to top Go down

Re: Overcrowded England

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum