Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:57 am

Whether a small, stable, and better resourced population is more economically efficient than an ever growing population depends, like most economic questions, on which economist you ask. Perhaps it's a matter of how well things are done, in either direction. It's not entirely an economic question, most people will balance economic success with quality of life.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Tue Mar 18, 2014 12:36 am



If the message from that is 'cut your coat according to your cloth' then such may have been an acceptable mantra in the past. Unfortunately modern man now sees the other man's coat and sees no reason why his should not also be likewise.
Ergo steps are taken to enable man to afford that which he cannot afford to raise his 'standard' and grow with the economy as it too grows and to be serviced in a custom to that which he has become accustomed. Education and technology are both a boon and a curse but to maintain ones 'position' requires the society to constantly push forward towards ever better things and to obtain that he must have an ever growing 'pool' of resource on which to draw. That can only be obtained from sufficient 'workers/taxpayers' to foot the bill. It doesn't work in reverse. Wink
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Mar 21, 2014 5:37 pm

It doesn't work in reverse for a nation that is massively in debt and needs to work it's way out of it. But perhaps it would work for a nation with a small population and great mineral wealth, oil, gas, coal, tin, copper, fine timber and so on, highly developed agriculture and fisheries, and small but profitable industries like insurance, television production, high tech electronics and luxury goods manufacture.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:15 am




But - but - we are as you initially described - not as you might wish it to be, as latterly described. Therefore we must act together and in concert with 'reality'. I don't know where on this planet exists this Utopian landscape thus latterly described. In fact never have I known such a place to exist other than perhaps a million years ago - and then we wouldn't have the knowledge to avail ourselves and 'take advantage' of all that you describe. I therefore must reiterate my point - immigration is a 'present' useful tool to enable the nation to survive and prosper. IT'S THE ECONOMY YOU IDIOT. Not my words and not aimed at you personally - but it resonates and has reality super glued to its backside.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:31 am

Well, glad you are not being personal with your idiot quotation. Following your logic, the more the UK is in debt, the more immigrants we need. A bit like taking in lodgers to pay the rent?

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:37 am

At last. Eureka. I do believe you have got it. Of course it is like your lodger comment. The world 'lives' on debt - otherwise who would bother to strive towards 'more'. It's that catalyst that drives everything forward. If we all had more than enough to survive on why would anyone bother getting out of bed? And - think about it - where would that inevitably lead? Its striving for survival that 'works' the planet. Paying off debt is a wonderful motivator. Who for example would 'service' the Saudis if we all had enough?
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:30 am

Don't really agree with your idea of the benefits of debt. Being in debt involves some loss of freedom.

The Saudis do 'take in lodgers' in the sense they allow temporary residence to workers they need. Immigration into the UK is rather different in that the 'lodgers' are here permanently, and eventually need their own houses.

We can see immigration gives a temporary boost to the economy, the question is, does it benefit the UK in the long term? The answer is probably that it is a benefit up to a certain level, but above that may well become, in time, a liability.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:46 am

I have no disagreement with your post as to where will it all end. Mayhem - who knows?


But you surely see the 'survival' instinct as structured around 'want'/'need' as a necessary force towards 'betterment'. Debt is a crucial part of the whole until one has 'acquired' sufficient for one's personal needs. Why does one save for retirement if not to ensure one's continued survival in comfort/ or rely on the State Pensions for a lower level of survival?
Everyone has debts. Some more than others. Some temporary, some long term. It's what makes the world go around. Smile

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:07 am

I've heard that money makes the world go round, and that love does, but debt does not have that reputation.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:23 am

One leads to the other. Smile 
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:19 am

Atlas wrote:
Everyone has debts. Some more than others. Some temporary, some long term. It's what makes the world go around. Smile

So, debt is good? It makes the world go round? Perhaps not everyone would agree. Being in debt can make people feel they are carrying the weight of the world on their shoulders.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:52 am

You obviously have not read my books -!!!!! Exclamation Arrow Smile ATLAS.
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Mar 26, 2014 5:49 pm

Well, it has been exactly what it says on the tin, Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Maybe Mr Farage and Nick Clegg will do better with their debate.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:00 am

Politicians lie. Part of the job. You won't get anything of value from such a debate. For information you can rely on you need to speak to proffesional persons, Uni profs who specialise in Trade and Commerce and the like, to even begin to value the rights and wrongs of the question - Should we stay or should we go -. And even then I doubt any political party will allow the 'general public' to make a final decision. Including a UKIP coalition - God forbid. affraid 
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:32 pm

Politicians are twisty with the truth, it may be out there somewhere, but irrelevant to political dialogue. As for individuals finding out the facts about effects of immigration, even academics that make a study of such things come up with contradictory results, depending on what they count as valuable.

The effects of over-population is a global problem. If Britain sees itself as a leading, responsible country, it isn't doing much to conserve it's own nature, countryside and landscape. If net immigration continues at present rate, much more land must eventually be bulldozed for housing, industry, infrastructure and intensive farming.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:20 am

Indeed cyfryfia that very same argument reared its head yet again on Question Time this week. Mass immigration 'does' put a strain on the housing market and help keep prices on the 'burgeoning bubble'. Just another nail in the mass immigration question and its value. All that this government is trying to do is 'stay in power' and have another go again next time. Meanwhile the problems (which I might add here are from at least 4 decades ago) are insurmountable and thus 'words' have to be found to keep the 'people' happy until the next 'round'. A building 'boom' is un-affordable in the light of land and property values which are used to promote this country's stature and economic wealth (as opposed to its manufacturing and commerce value). No self respecting 'democrat, and that means present parties in total, would tinker with that for fear of losing out on 'world positioning' as a building boom would allow property values to firstly stagnated then slowly reduced as the country is not in a good position to counterbalance the effects with increased manufacturing and commerce. The present 'rise' is due to consumer spending (on which the housing market has a big influence). It has very little to do with international trade and extra international demand. Which is why many do not see their own personal lives becoming better in a monetary sense. If we stopped immigration tomorrow the problems would all still be with us - and could get worse if the birth rates drop too steeply. Ergo - - - !!!!
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:03 pm

The coalition government did a fair job when it first came in, understanding the dynamics of international money and putting the brakes on the catastrophic overspend associated with the banking collapse.

Beyond that they and every other party, now seem to be exhausted of ideas. The world is changing so quickly now, it must be difficult to think everything through properly, all too easy to cope with one crisis by generating another.

Britain's natural role within europe is not as a seethingly overcrowded warehouse for people. We should be looking to a slimmed down, high tech, low impact, industrial future. The best places for people to live in Europe are in France, Spain, Bulgaria. If europe could truly co-operate it could be a much more balanced and functional situation.


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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:06 am

And there you have it of course. IF people would learn to co-operate. But they haven't and they don't. People are arrogant and selfish by nature and with politics the 'national' interest (their own) come first. And so we 'rumble 'on with the same old same old - and hope for the best that can be obtained. The more people the greater the need. The greater the need the more selfish we all become for the 'resource' which is finite. Where will it end nobody knows - - But it won't be pretty. It never is. Fair fortune in your personal endeavors  Wink Rolling Eyes .
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Tue May 06, 2014 12:57 am

So will it help you or others to make their minds up if we witness the spectacle of Farage V Cameron V Milliband each banging their respective drums to the beat of 'Jam today and Jam tomorrow'? No doubt the Anti-EU programme of UKIP will finally be washed out of the picture as the three of them launch into the 'you can't get me I'm not a racist' theme followed by 'a vote for me will make you happy'. Not a single one of them has the wit of a gnat but one of them will be 'your' leader come summer of next year. How so very, very sad is that -! Sad Rolling Eyes No 
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:53 pm

The problem of immigration is escalating on a wide scale, with desperate migrants moving towards and through Europe, so many abandoned to drown in the Mediterranean. Numbers get more all the time, accounts of the journeys they make and what happens to them on the way are shocking. The UK is a destination of choice, it's a problem that's going to be on the agenda for the foreseeable future, as much as the future is foreseeable.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:41 am

The more people become 'desperate' the more they will seek survival wherever that presents itself.
The West is a natural target. You would do the same in their shoes.
A country must protect itself as best it can - or suffer the consequences. 7 billion and rising - - !

Someone once said ' Wars are necessary to help reduce populations'. But every time there is one you all get maudlin.
Funny world isn't it?
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:16 pm

Most people will agreee, if they are in that sort of mood, it is a funny old world.

One of the funny old things about freedom of movement within the EU that was never quite explained, is that we have to pay unemployment benefit to people from EU countries who work here, when they return to their own countries, until such time as they get a job again.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/26/uk-owes-our-citizens-unpaid-welfare-say-slovakia-and-czech-republic

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:10 am

Yes. But it is the same for our own people who find themselves in the same position after losing employment in Europe. Rolling Eyes It does work both ways. Wink
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:18 am

An interesting theory.

Most countries of Europe seem to run their systems more as they please, or in their own interests, rather than leaping up to do things they don't want to.

When it comes to issues about the EU, it's fairly reliable to assume the UK public have been mis-informed, or not informed at all. With the general lack of information, statistics, facts etc., all is guesswork.

Last we heard of anything by way of information, was that we were joining the 'Common Market", which sounded like an arrangement to get more variety of fresh vegetables. That information proved a bit iffy, turned out a bit more complicated than that.

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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

Post  Atlas on Tue Sep 30, 2014 12:46 am

Which has been the 'bone of contention' since we 'joined'. Had the question been - 'Do you want to join in with a federated Europe, each with the same obligatory laws and rights and commerce'? I suspect the answer to the referendum would have been a resounding NO. We were mislead (if not downright duped) or our own government of the time didn't understand the situation. Whatever - it isn't what we signed up for and we have every right to tell them to stuff it if we want. But do we - - - - ??? Has the wheel turned too far??? Would we be better off sticking with the club - for only from 'inside' is it possible to manipulate with any degree of success. What do we gain by throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water?
A tricky question indeed.
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Re: Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

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