Town Hall's Future use ?

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hinch on Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:57 pm


We could have it as the HQ for our branch of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party Old Regulator, or perhaps as a film studio for BDSM porn films? All that Gothic stuff would make the perfect backdrop for all those smutty movies involving damsels being chained to pillars as they await their 'trainer' etc.

If we want to explore the full income generation potential, I saw an item on TV a few weeks ago in which a scrote was growing £150,000's worth of cannabis in a two up, two down council house.

Just imagine the potential of a building the size of the Town Hall! There would be no legal problems if we export it to that US state that has decriminalised the stuff a few weeks ago. Just wire in a few hydroponics.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Poppyanna555 on Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:24 pm



Hamid, as far as I am concerned a nation like Britain has a right to hold dear and maintain it's traditions and customs just as 'your' people do.

I could say more but will leave it at that  Wink

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:14 pm



Which traditions and customs are these Mrs Poppyanna? Enslavement? Child Labour? Colonisation?  Illegal wars? The killing of men in custody by your armed forces? Foodbanks? Drug addiction? Alcoholism? Please tell me more and we will enter into discussions.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Old Regulator on Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:28 pm




A fine tradition of fishing springs to mind.

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Atlas on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:40 am

Hamid wrote:
Which traditions and customs are these Mrs Poppyanna? Enslavement? Child Labour? Colonisation?  Illegal wars? The killing of men in custody by your armed forces? Foodbanks? Drug addiction? Alcoholism? Please tell me more and we will enter into discussions.


Hamid. You are trying to be a mischief maker considering there isn't a single race or nation on this earth who wouldn't fit in to the descriptions given above - including your own whichever it may be.      If you prattle on about the sins of the fathers we will be here forever and a day.       Show me a man who professes to be pure and without sin and I will show you a liar.         So put your soap-box away and curtail your righteousness and try to keep to the point of the original post instead of sniping from the cloisters and suggest 'something' for the use of the building which logic dictates will be useful to those who will ultimately have to make the decisions and be responsible for the outcomes.          That's what reasonable rational logical people do
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:48 am

I have made a suggestions that would have very few costs associated with it and would have the support of many people in the town. The trouble is, it doesn't fit in with the cloth cap and tripe and cowheel definition of what Poppyanna describes as her customs and traditions.

It would seem that the lack of imagination and a pathetic clinging to your past will continue to hold the town back. So talk of your long dead textile industry with dreams of Cottonopolis and dig up you medieval bridges by all means. The future beckons but Rochdale is only comfortable with the long dead and gone. Let's face it, you've all given up on any hope of the future.

Why are you all so keen to cling this heap of stone built in the grand manner out of money raised by exploiting people working in appalling conditions in your mills and factories?       This hideous monstrosity was an insult to the ordinary citizens upon whose backs this place was built.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hinch on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:30 am

Hamid, you raise some valid points. This town does have a problem with looking backwards rather than forwards but that does not invalidate the desire to preserve the significant and the noteworthy. As said, I have no particular objection to the mosque concept other than I feel that such a concept would generate widespread controversy and increase tension.

You are right when you suggest, in your provocative manner, that the profits from the textile industry were shared by the few rather than the many and the erection of the town hall happened at a time when people were starving and infant mortality was at Third World levels.


However, it remains a great building. It needs to be preserved. As a museum, it will not attract great numbers nor will it secure its future. Whatever happens to it has to have a relevance that will see it being used on an ongoing basis. This implies some sort of commercial use and probably being multi-functional.

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Old Regulator on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:15 am

Does that mean my Monty Python idea isn’t suitable?  Okay let’s try again.  Learning from our history let’s create an equality centre to embrace all that the 21st century can offer us.  The centre will be a cooperative where all are treated equally and all the old fashioned ideas, before the enlightenment that is, are rightfully condemned to the dustbin of time.

A place where all are given hope to contribute to our Towns future and innovation rules.

In a spirit of epistemology I will point out a few draw backs but as a nation of doers these could easily be over come.

Equality means all, yes women as well, will be treated with respect and held as contributors to the future.

Will the people vote for this?  As a student of the electoral system in Rochdale it is a very good question.  I, as a democrat, have long lamented the poor turn out at local elections, but conversely have applauded the turnout, well vote count, in certain wards.   These wards have enthusiastically embraced postal voting, not necessarily one vote one man.

Earlier in this thread I suggested that some local politicians ‘misrepresent’ the electorate and I stick by this.


When the promised consultation is upon us I hope that some form of statistical transparency is built in, to the extent of being overseen by independent observers.


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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hinch on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:21 am

Will these grandiose plans for equality include separate entrances and seating areas for burka-wearing women Old Regulator so that all our citizenry can feel welcome and included?
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:43 am


I too applaud the postal voting system.  Although there has been some criticism, usually by the losers, surely it is a good thing that people are prepared to go out and encourage people to participate in the democratic process and even assist them to fill in the forms where help is needed as well as collect the forms and deliver them?

As for separate entrances for those who choose to wear traditional dress. Why not? It is helping to let people make individual choices in their lives. It is a non-issue.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hinch on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:16 pm


I think you are drifting away from the subject a tad here Hamid but OR makes a good point. If it is to be the people of Rochdale who make the choice, rather than a handful of councillors caving into the usual pressures from various sources, the consultation needs to be overseen independently.

I have heard far too many oily platitudes from politicians of all hues assuring us that they have listened, then blindly going ahead with their own preferred and pre-planned choice anyway.

Public consultation, oh what sins are committed in thy name? We are now a town with no hospital beds. All done in the name of public consultation. Did we vote for it? Did we 'eck as like.

Old Regulator, as belies his advancing years is confusing consultation with democracy and even the process of voting.

Silly old fool!

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  johnb on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:43 pm

Hamid wrote:I too applaud the postal voting system.  Although there has been some criticism, usually by the losers, surely it is a good thing that people are prepared to go out and encourage people to participate in the democratic process and even assist them to fill in the forms where help is needed as well as collect the forms and deliver them?

As for separate entrances for those who choose to wear traditional dress. Why not? It is helping to let people make individual choices in their lives. It is a non-issue.


I would agree with your point regarding postal voting ... If I could be convinced that the postal votes were being completed by the people they were issued to, not husbands, uncles or community/party elders.

I could even be convinced in the benefits of using the Town Hall as a mosque - if the Civic Christmas Carol Service were to be held in rotation at mosques, as well as churches, with provision made for modestly dressed individuals of both genders to sit together in the Christian tradition...

However, since neither of these propositions seems likely, then I cannot support the other issues.

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:58 pm

The postal voting is about two very different socio-political traditions, and how they remain separate and don't mesh.

Anything representing the history of Rochdale, the town hall, established traditions, or the British flag reveals anger in Hamid. He raises valid historical criticisms, but of things that are in no way a British monopoly, the problems described are found all around the world. Perhaps we are too complacent about some things, such as the postal voting mentioned, today's more multi cultural and globalized society is not the old fashioned Britain, and needs much stronger systems of scrutiny, responsibility and policing.

This is a complicated country with a complicated history, which can be presented in a negative way by those who do not thoroughly understand it, or are motivated to present it in a negative way. There is a price to be paid for the British traditions of tolerance and fairness, allowing hostile views and actions to have sometimes too much free expression, example in the tragic case of Lee Rigby, where the murderers should have been locked up before they killed.

If the town hall was converted to a mosque, Hamid's, and perhaps others, attitude towards the building apparently might not be one of positive and co-operative blending of cultures and traditions, but rather one of invasive take-over.

Whatever use is made of the old town hall, it should serve the people of Rochdale and serve their interests. The mosque idea looks like a road to division, and does not suit that purpose. Something balanced is needed, preferably with as wide a public access to the building as possible.

Giving some thought to Hamid's criticism of all things British, there is an issue, and things that need attention. So many of our systems now are not fit for purpose. As an example, the Red Arrows are symbol of a British tradition. A pilot was killed recently when the ejector seat went off when it shouldn't.

"Testing of the Mk.10 Martin-Baker seat showed that the safety pin could be inserted even when the seat was in this unsafe position, giving the impression the seat was safe."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-25943211

The Red Arrows were a reassuring symbol of British skill, engineering and tradition, but things have been allowed to lapse, to the point where the mechanism simply became a definite death trap.

Similar with so many of the other systems that we depend on, everything from housing, land management, political scrutiny systems, border control, just about everything might look and sound ok if you don't know too much about it, but when it comes to the nitty-gritty and your life depends on it, the inadequate and dysfunctional reality of the situation becomes apparent.  Smile 


Last edited by cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:12 pm

I think you misunderstand or maybe I have not made myself plain. Britain has been good to me. In turn, I have been good to it. My business has provided wealth, created jobs and I pay all my taxes in full and on time. I am not angry. Far from it. I am not a British citizen but that does not mean that I reject this country. 

Britain's reputation for tolerance and fair play is however a self-description and not to be trusted universally. Many other countries, including your former protectorates and colonies see it in a different light and remembering times when your relationship was exploitative and driven only by self-interest.

As for the free expression you allow, looking at the thread on councillor Ahmed, this seems not to extend to your own famous 'free' press.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:30 pm

Hamid wrote:I think you misunderstand or maybe I have not made myself plain.

Maybe, I have no idea of how you feel apart from what you have said on this thread, Hamid.

You say you are a long time resident of Britain who rejects the British flag as "not my flag" you refer to it as "the butchers apron", and to the traditions and customs of Britain as enslavement, child labour, colonisation, illegal wars, drug addiction and alcoholism.

You sound a tad angry against Britain, but, maybe that's just a superficial impression. This thread about uses for the town hall has wandered a bit, but maybe that's because it is a difficult and complicated problem that will raise a lot of issues about the dynamics and future of the town, and will require a thoughtful and practical plan.


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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:43 pm

No, I said that the Irish used to describe the flag as the butchers apron. I was seeking to convey, perhaps clumsily, that not all see things in a way that can be taken for granted and universally held.

North Korea describes itself as a model of freedom and democracy as does America. Are these assumptions valid? If not why not and how valid is Britain's often quoted view of itself as being the home of tolerance, free speech and fair play? You choose to see yourselves in this way, others may not.

Britain was once slave traders to the world and it's epicentre was a mere fifty miles away. That is historical fact. Child prostitution is alive and well on your streets and in your land of free speech, none of these victims were listened to.

I am not religious and do not attend mosque but I believe that the suggestion made to use all or part of the Town Hall as a centre of worship was worthy of discussion. The other alternatives being put forward seem to be either facetious or unimaginative.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:06 pm


Your use of the word "No" is a bit unconvincing there, Hamid. Your rejection of the British flag and way of life, customs and traditions is fairly clear, and you give some reasons, which bear thinking about.

Yes, Britain was, for a time, a major player in a slave trade. Closer study shows a rather more complex picture. The fact that the British were so anti-slavery and so involved in abolishing it is a reason why the British connection is well known. Britain was a major player in putting an end to the international Atlantic slave trade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml

The British will always do the right thing, but, not until all other avenues have been thoroughly explored.

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:22 pm

cyfrifia wrote:Your use of the word "No" is a bit unconvincing there, Hamid. Your rejection of the British flag and way of life, customs and traditions is fairly clear, and you give some reasons, which bear thinking about.

Yes, Britain was, for a time, a major player in a slave trade. Closer study shows a rather more complex picture. The fact that the British were so anti-slavery and so involved in abolishing it is a reason why the British connection is well known. Britain was a major player in putting an end to the international Atlantic slave trade.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml

The British will always do the right thing, but, not until all other avenues have been thoroughly explored.

I have rejected nothing. I have very clearly said that I am not British. Why then should I try to claim your flag? I am merely telling you the truth based on reality.

Neither do I reject the British way of life. I am merely questioning the strength, depth and breadth of some of the values that are often trotted out although, in reality, these values tend to be almost wholly aspirational in nature.

The British continued to make big money out of slavery long after they claimed to have abolished it and bought its by-products in the form of cheap cotton, tobacco, coffee, sugar, rum etc right until the USA finally abolished it. You can't abolish slavery whilst slipping the profits of its free labour into your back pocket.

Was it a primary school you taught at Cyfrifia? Your arguments seem to be almost totally devoid of any intellectual rigour.

Examination of a few basic texts by EP Thompson, Eric Hosbawm or perhaps Floud & McClusky might be a good place to start. You don't need to be a slave-owner to profit handsomely from the trade. It is likely that some of the Town Hall was built on the trade in cheap cotton.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:49 pm



Well, Hamid, the one thing you do seem to want to, and are able to, make clear is that you are not British, and that's something you are very happy about. Your suggestion to make the town hall into a mosque was worth a thought, but not a good idea really.


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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Wed Jan 29, 2014 5:50 pm

I am happy to remain a citizen of my own country. I am neither happy or unhappy about being a UK citizen. It quite simply isn't a factor. I work hard, pay tax, provide jobs, give to various charities and have never claimed benefits apart from a few weeks unemployment in the early 90s.

I'm sorry this is insufficient for your tests Cyfrifia. I could have lied I suppose and pretended to be a British Muslim but I suspect that even that would still leave me firmly in the `outsider' caste. One of my employees, a British Asian was getting some stick from colleagues about being what they called 'a Paki'. He wasn't and unknown to them had served in the army for five years including service in Iraq. Perhaps he too will be an outsider for the rest of his life?

I was interested in your comments re the Red Arrows. I saw them about 2-3 years ago at Southport. The Hawk trainer they fly is 40 years old this year! High time they got an upgraded aircraft.
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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:42 pm

Sorry Hamid, I don't offer an online testing service.  sunny 

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Guest on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:04 am

Hamid wrote: I could have lied I suppose and pretended to be a British Muslim but I suspect that even that would still leave me firmly in the outsider' caste. .

Such a pretence wouldn't have made any difference, as many of your comments have been viewed as simply too ridiculous to document an opinion on by practicing local Muslim community members.        It's apparent that you have but cursory understanding of religious customs and local initiatives from your own posts that expanded a mosque theme for the Town Hall     -  rather like someone mooting that  Presbyterian and traditional Roman Catholic 'followers' would share a communal church building   Rolling Eyes   Rolling Eyes  
There are communities of many different Muslim ‘denominations’ here in Rochdale - Deobandi, Tableeghi, Barelvi, Salafi, Sufi, Jamat Islami and UKIM, to mention just a few; all have active mosques that serve their respective communities.       Large, new, beautiful, ' appropriate-to-purpose ' mosques are nearing completion very centrally, having cost their worshipers and committees many, many Millions of £s.  Just two recent examples, taken from several : -
   
The geography of Rochdale also seems most un-familiar to you.        What a shame you have apparently over-diverted this thread for your personal attitudes, and not been in a position to suggest other commercially-viable uses for an English Heritage building ( which you've also previously described, on here, as a " hideous monstrosity !  " ) - despite your claimed business proficiencies and intellectual dexterity.

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Re: Town Hall's Future use ?

Post  Hamid on Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:48 am


I presume that with a name like Mojo that you are a member of some voodoo or devil-worshipping cult so it is no surprise that you oppose the expansion of organised religion.    Most of the new mosques are eyesores and out of keeping with their surroundings.   You describe them as 'beautiful'.     I certainly don't.

I don't think that there are any commercially viable uses for this building.   Expensive to operate, heat and maintain with impossible restrictions on making any sort of adaptations.     It was designed for a specific purpose in very different times and is now, at best, a white elephant.    It will no doubt limp along for another century or so as a home for various community groups and occasional poorly attended concerts , tea dances for the near-senile and organ recitals etc but commercially viable it has never been and never will be.,

So Mr Mojo - or Baron Samedi if you prefer, you criticise those making suggestions, what are your own? Occult worship, tarot cards readings, crystal-gazing, a colonic irrigation facility perhaps or a home for spiritualism or televised ghost hunts?

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