Air quality

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Re: Air quality

Post  johnb on Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:33 pm

[[b]quote="cyfrifia"]
Not polluting the atmosphere in the first place is a common sense idea. Common sense of course is rare. The huge toxic fires we have so many of in the north of England are
(1) Extremely toxic, being of plastics, tyres, electronics, chemicals, paint, oil etc.
and
(2) Avoidable. Simple (common sense) procedures and precautions could cut the number and scale of them.
(3) Expensive. We effectively burn our wealth, breathe in the fumes and cost the health service with our cancers. Why do we carry on doing it? Because we don't know how to stop.
[/quote]

The fires we have in the 'North of England' are not that large in the global scheme of things.

Regarding not polluting in the first place:

When the 'developed' world is built on conspicuous consumption of energy and resource, it is very hard to tell countries less developed that they cannot have what we enjoy. Are we going to lead by example and start living more simply?

Think well before you answer!

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:04 pm

The problem for Delhi is sheer volume of smoke and smog produced by a huge population.

"widespread use of festival fireworks, the burning of rubbish by the city's poor, plus farm waste from around the city, vehicular emissions and construction dust, all contribute to the city's thick "pea-soup" fogs."

Our air pollution in Greater Manchester area is not so much the volume of smoke as the intense toxicity of the 'accidental' fires we have regularly.

The experimental Delhi idea of a thermal chimmney effect, similar to the updraft of hot air above a candle flame will rely on running jet engines pointing upwards continuously for a long time to establish such an updraft.

The Delhi 'solution' wouldn't easily apply to the sporadic toxic fires we have that generally burn for a day or two. The UK needs a different solution, - prevention; not  stacking toxic 'waste' in such big piles, limiting the size of piles of scrap cars, plastic for recycling et., that, and some precautions, would make fires less likely, less intense, easier to extinguish.

P.S. Pollution is inevitable, but like everything else in industry, needs safe procedures to manage. There is no economic or social benefit from huge accidental toxic fires. The question of telling other countries what to do does not arise, except in your post, johnb. We are, by the way the cookie has crumbled, a 'leading' nation to some extent, to meet that we should perhaps do whatever needs doing intelligently and humanely. No need to live in the woods and whittle spoons.

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Re: Air quality

Post  Atlas on Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:22 pm

The new technologies for all these 'ills' are what will bounce many of these Third World nations ahead of the game IF they concentrate on where WE left off. It makes no sense either economically or socially to FOLLOW in our footsteps. It is to be hoped they have learned from our mistakes (all be them accidental). We should also be thrashing the treasury and government to do the same (but better) and concentrating on 'tomorrows' requirements whenever and wherever possible. That's where the new 'economy's' will be born from. Building ships, digging coal, melting ore, are all yesterday's jam and bread and are not needed for anyone's future. Especially when they can be done far cheaper by others if at all required. As regards re-cycling and toxic dumps etc the government is as always years behind with the appropriate legislation to control them properly and make sure the sanctions for breaches prohibit lackadaisical management. Until THAT is done the problem will persist.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:10 am

Quite so. There is acceptance of air pollution, as Johnb says "The fires we have in the 'North of England' are not that large in the global scheme of things."

Generally true, but still enough to be worth thinking about, the types of fire are of plastics and chemicals in densely populated areas with already problematic levels of air pollution.

Pubic awareness may change, if air pollution, it's effects on health and environment become more widely understood.

When we see a parent standing chatting, holding a child in a pushchair close to the exhaust of a parked car with the engine ticking over, the level of public unawareness is obvious.

What will come first, regulation to limit 'accidental' toxic fires, or, public awareness of, and discontent with, air pollution levels?

The E.U. 'forced' us to clean up rivers and coastal waters, but they may not be there to impose clean air on us, perhaps we need to sort that out ourselves? Will Rochdale lead the way? Perhaps not.


Last edited by cyfrifia on Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Air quality

Post  Atlas on Thu Dec 15, 2016 3:07 pm

You are correct about 'impositions' on fouling - but I would have preferred such laws to have been made here not by unelected bureaucrats elsewhere. The trouble with 'unfettered impositions' is where one stops before the 'impositions' become 'chains'. I barely trust my own - I certainly do not trust 'outsiders'.

I would imagine that regulation will come soon regarding recycling storage etc. How effective it will be is quite another thing. Wink Wink

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:25 am

Quite. Another thing.

Maple Mill in Oldham is burning now, (again). A huge blaze, a cotton milll. Floor timbers of those mills are generally soaked in oil from the looms, so maybe not good smoke to be breathing.

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:05 am

A massive mill fire, still burning today. Fairly normal you might say, which is the point. We accept massive mill fires as part of the normal run of things, and by extention, other, more toxic fires as an unremarkable part of the 'northern way of life' too.

Airplane pilots have no problem locating Manchester, they just look for the 'ring of fires'.

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Re: Air quality

Post  Atlas on Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:35 pm

Now you are trying to 'mess' with 'nature'. The 'stock-taking' of cotton mills has been part of the industrial history of Lancashire since the late 1950's and is part of our heritage. First you transfer the machinery to India having fired all the workers. Then you lease out parts of the mill for sufficient to keep paying the overheads. Then you try and sell it. Having failed you employ a industrial accountant (otherwise known as a pyromaniac) who removes the problem by a large insurance claim. Simple.

Now why would you want to destroy a very lucrative industry? Ahhh - I remember it well -. Very Happy

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Dec 17, 2016 10:29 am

The 'burn the mill' insurance scam is a fairly well known part of the culture of the northern ex-mill towns.

However, there is a fine but important distinction to make between that tradition and modern toxic fires.

Smile

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Re: Air quality

Post  Atlas on Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:20 pm

Indeed. You mean profit before pollution. I couldn't agree more. I'll drink to that as I can afford to do so from my pyrotechnic claims.

Ay lass. Whenever has public safety come before profits? And the dance goes on. Crying or Very sad Evil or Very Mad Wink Rolling Eyes

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Re: Air quality

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:51 pm

As I carefully sorted out the metal, plastics and paper for recycling, I had a feeling like I was preparing kindling. Storm barbara and winter weather generally should limit the toxic recycling fires for a while.

Nothing else does.  Rolling Eyes

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Re: Air quality

Post  Atlas on Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:48 pm

Absolutely. Gale force winds will fuel the fires out of existence with a few massive billows of rain sodden oxygen and you can look forward to a cleaner existence for a week or so. Life - isn't it wonderful. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Merry Christmas.xxxxx Razz

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Re: Air quality

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