Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

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Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:14 pm

How pleasant it is not to be a politician or decision maker. On top of all the complicated election hoo ha, there is the massive and potentially ongoing death toll of people trying to reach europe, with so many drowning in the attempt. We could see it coming, Islamic state announced quite clearly that they would flood the mediterranean with refugees, but with the spring weather, it's happening now, complicated, far reaching decisions need to be taken very quickly.

The australians urge europe to turn back the boats, as they have, to refuse entry. Many european countries don't even want to think about the situation, the consensus needed for european decisions isn't there.

Islamic state has said they will put fighters amongst the refugees, Christians in particular are being slaughtered both on land and at sea. Unlimited acceptance of refugees could add up to millions, refusing them entry could see many die, very difficult decisions to make and to implement.

Is there a coherent plan behind it all? Islamic state say they intend to attack into Spain eventually, and into Italy by the way. Greece is looking unstable and possibly vulnerable. Ah well, not for me to decide, apart from voting. It's clouded over a bit now.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:38 pm

European leaders meeting to discuss the crisis have heard conflicting views. The Italians especially are expressing the view that this is a war against modern slave traders, and want europe to consider direct action to sink boats in harbour before they can be used.

Other ideas include setting up bases in africa to process and transport refugees safely into Europe. I sometimes hope with these international crisies that someone somewhere understands what's going on and is quietly doing something sensible, but .......

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:14 pm

Sensible!  Yes. I remember that. We used to do things like that at one time. But then we were more pragmatic in my day. We didn't mind very much that foreigners arrived in our town. We didn't mind that they found work - there was work around in those days. We didn't mind them getting the Dole because it was a mere pittance at the time - and so we didn't have many hang-ups with the Poles and the Irish and even the West Indians in the 50's. If you were a 'refugee' or virtually starving we had enough compassion to spare.   But it's not like that now is it?

So -.   It's just not good enough to say I am my brother's keeper in a world that is overpopulated. In a world whereby my 'brother' thinks that regardless of all my other brothers he can just arrive unannounced and that I will provide all natures comforts regardless of consequence to the brothers I have already here. A cake can only slice up in a number of ways before it all becomes crumbs. In this scenario 'Charity begins at Home'.

They must be returned to their country of departure. However unpalatable. However inhuman. And it's time the rest of the world stopped giving out disingenuous platitudes and at the very least paid out the humanitarian aid it keeps promising. From there we work for better governments in the countries from whence the tide of immigration flows. End of.
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:18 am

"The day on which Lawlessness reared it's ugly head at Blandings castle was one of singular beauty. The sun shone down from a sky of cornflower blue, and what one would really like would be to describe in leisurely detail the ancient battlements, the smooth green lawns, the rolling parkland, the majestic trees, the well-bred bees and the gentlemanly birds on which it shone."

When P.G. Wodehouse wrote that paragraph, he conjured a vision of English tranquillity that can still appear momentarily on a sunny day. I do like to enjoy what's left of it, it while I can.

Against the background of overwhelming overpopulation, can we take in more migrants as Germany is urging us to, or is Cameron right to refuse, to send aid and rescue instead? A vexed question. In a world of such unavoidable problems it's tempting to escape into field and woodland, dappled sunlight and birdsong, at least temporarily.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:07 pm

But that would be only 'sensible' if the object was to take a few moments of time to relax the brain and drift away into a realm of temporary fantasy in which to ease the pressures of outrageous fortunes that prevail in the 'real' world - would it not?

Nothing wrong with that always providing one doesn't lose the realities that abound and with which one must deal every wakened hour of every wakened day.

Yes - it's a pain. I know. I know. - - - But that's life as we know it James. The rest is delusion.

Given one is not a great lover of delusion - in fact one might go as far as to say - outright opponent. It behooves of me to 'flower' your day with smooth words or acquiescences or promises of better things to come.

We deal with what we have, with what we've got, with the best of our abilities at the time. Hindsight I leave to others of a lesser intellect as it is a corruption of the facts and the veracity of the situation at the time of its happening. We can all be wiser after the event.

For the sake of our humanity (not the world's) we must return them from whence they came. The minority will always suffer for the sake of the majority. It's the way our world works.
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Apr 26, 2015 10:18 pm

It is still possible to find a quiet and pleasant spot to relax and soak up the greenery in England, away from the noise of traffic, at least for a while, so it isn't a fantasy or delusional, but it is an escape.

I gather you would decide to return migrants to from whence they came. I can see the reasons why, but the rules of the european community say that refugees should clain asylum in the country where they arive, and not leave that country into the rest of europe, until they have been granted citizenship of the E.U., a rule we have never yet enforced, as refugees are 'waved through' towards the UK.

Perhaps it's time to play by the rules?

Europe must take the lessons from the Titanic. A design of separate watertight compartments, where one or more compartments may flood without sinking the whole boat, fails disastrously, when water flows from one compartment to the other, the whole ship goes down.

Similarly modern europe is 'designed' as a series of countries, if an overwhelming flow of migrants from outside europe flows from one european country to another, the whole thing fails.

In the long run, the world will have to be shared amongst all the various nations and cultures, hopefully this will eventually be done by negotiation and by law, rather than by war.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Mon Apr 27, 2015 2:50 pm

And there you have it in a nutshell.  Future wars will revolve around 'Water' and 'Land'. As the populations burgeon the need for both will become acute. Water for irrigation and survival, Land for living space and comforts. There are instances already of both. But - and here is the rub - those that 'have' will not wish to share with those that 'haven't'. The tools to rebuff will always be in the hands of those who have with the result that those who haven't will die in their millions trying to get their 'fair' share. If you are asking the 'rich' to give up what they have willingly (by negotiation) think again. And here is where the 'fifth' column comes in. It's already here in amongst us. It has a long term aim. It can wait and bide its time.
'And the meek shall rule the earth'. Indeed they will. But not before billions die and the planet becomes unstable. I won't be around at that time. Ergo - it really doesn't interest me.

Meanwhile take them back to from whence they came - and keep taking them back. Others, including ourselves, have in the past simply butchered them - it's quicker that way. I don't advocate that. Indeed I would be very much against it. I think my solution has more merit - for the majority. Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:48 pm

As far as I can see from the news media, thousands of people are crossing into europe every week, hundreds are dying, and millions more are in the background, moving along long established people smuggling routes through africa and asia, all converging into europe via many routes. It's been going on for years, the numbers are increasing rapidly, and it's an incredibly complicated and tragic situation that isn't going to go away.

I have enough to do re-arranging my deckchair for sun and shade, and, as usual, a list of things that need thinking about. Reminds me of the summer before the outbreak of the first world war, except I wasn't there. Best not to know what's coming and enjoy the day.

Your solution of returning migrants to from whence they came doesn't sound very humane, but I have no better solution to what looks like an overwhelming problem. I was told as a child that by the time I was old, the world population would be so massive as to be catastrophic. Not quite there yet, but it's looking that way. Can't see the point of making England any more overcrowded, it won't help the situation in the long run.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Someone once said' Wars are necessary to reduce to populations' to which I reply 'Perhaps. But here's one bit of population that doesn't want reducing thank you'.

And there you have it. Natural disasters/wastage and human follies reduce the populations but the reduction is somewhat less than the 'production' - 3-1 I believe. Ergo a constantly growing population. Something we cannot humanely do anything about.

So what's the answer?   There isn't one. What will inevitably happen will be overproduction outstripping resources and constant strife or natural disasters (including viral etc) in order for some 'sanity' to ensue. Whatever the outcome it will be long after my time and as such will not be my problem even should I wish it to be so.

Meanwhile. In order to maintain the status quo we should send back all immigrants to where we found them (or the nearest, same countries, dry land).

There is another consequence of our being 'humane' and that's our culture. One should ask why do they wish to come here in the first place. Having answered that satisfactorily - then my solution becomes all the more clear and rational if we are to continue to accept a 'limited' amount of them here in the U.K.
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:07 pm

Correction, not hundreds of migrants drowning in the Mediterranean, many thousands, about two thousand this year already, twenty thousand over the past ten years or so, it is difficult to realise the true scale of the migrant crisis.

The main focus of the immigration problem between Libya and Italy echoes the historical wars between Carthage and Rome. The empire and culture of Carthage, in modern Tunisia is lost to history, the destruction was so complete, but it was an inventive, extensive and rich culture with excellent agriculture.

If Tunisia could be invited to join in the project with europe, and given massive investment, an area could be set up in north Africa to provide a place for the refugees from out of africa to live and work and set up, in the long term, a thriving and sustainable place to live.

It would be a big project, but has merit in that it re-establishes civilisation where it was destroyed by a european power, means that europe can be a positive help to africa after the exploitation of previous centuries.

It might be attacked by Islamic state if that organisation still exists in few years, but it could be a defensible focus rather than the iffy future of infiltration that Tunisia might face if nothing useful is done.

A vague and woolly idea, but the world needs answers, you have to start somewhere.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:24 pm

The EU can't look after its own people never mind anyone else's. There would be no votes for setting up enclaves for migrants or anything else. The best and ONLY solution is to send/take them back.
That's if you want our cultures to survive and our inhabitants to have some recompense for their trials and tribulations. We do enough already for others less fortunate. WE CAN'T SAVE THE WORLD and never could. I am only my brothers keeper if I survive in the first place. One has to get 'real'. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Smile
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:51 pm

To get real means accepting that creating a safe zone in north africa, or sending migrants back are  fictional not going to happens, not in the foreseeable anyway.

Following the European crisis meeting, some action may be taken against people smugglers, which sounds ok. The move towards distributing migrants geographically between european countries sounds problematic. Mr. Farage came in for fierce criticism for saying that Islamic State intends to use the flood of refugees to distribute it's fighters into Europe. Fairly obviously they will try to, perhaps it's the way Mr. Farage says it that people don't like, or, does he wave his arms about too much?

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Fri May 01, 2015 2:15 pm

In essence Farage has the right approach to the immigration problem. Adopting the Oz way of doing things would be a start but with a few tweeks here and there.
However such does not mean he is for 'real' or has the answers to everything else.
Nationalism is not a form of politics dear to my heart - in fact quite the reverse. It's dangerous in the wrong hands and as history shows us such can become the final outcome when power becomes addictive. Therefore I tread a path of moderation - as in most things. And leave the rhetoric to the wind.
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Sat May 30, 2015 10:44 am

As a child growing up in rainy Manchester, my idea of paradise was the Greek islands, sunny, peaceful, relaxed and beautiful, so eventually, I made it a priority to get there. Package holidays made it possible, once there, you could escape from the madding crowds, find the ferries used by the locals to island-hop, and find those beautiful quiet places. You probably still can, but news now is of refugee immigrants arriving in their thousands.

Strange contrast, paradise and refugees from war zones. I'm glad I was able to visit the Greek Islands when they were quiet and basking in a peaceful era. Probably still a good place for a holiday, but not exactly 'away from it all' as it used to be.



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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Sat May 30, 2015 1:56 pm

Once they became 'commercialise', sometime in the 70s, they lost any enchantment for me. But of course I was one of those who helped push them into commercialising by my mere presence therein.

We are the architects of our own destructions. As for the immigrants proliferating thereupon. Where else would they end up - other than at the bottom of the Med. They should be taken back from whence they came. The traffickers will eventually run out of boats if we keep destroying them. or at least it will reduce the numbers to a trickle which would be easier to deal with properly. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Sat May 30, 2015 8:49 pm

The 'enchantment' of the Greek isles did fade with commercialisation in the latter half of the twentieth century, but then, it was much the same everywhere. With globalisation and membership of the E.U., Greece changed a lot. The further off the 'beaten track', the better generally speaking, but the islands each have their own character, some more agreeable than others, depending what suits.

Emphasis seems to have shifted to a humanitarian approach of positively seeking out refugee boats and rescuing them, ideas of returning them are probably impractical as many would only try again. Without highly organised military style defence of borders, which would not be acceptable to most people, or to european values, the flow of refugees is pretty unstoppable.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Sun May 31, 2015 2:23 pm

At the moment there is a 'need' for immigration both to Italy and Germany as both are beginning to suffer from a reduced birth rate, essential for economic growth. This is of course only a 'blip' in their respective commercial futures but at present desirable. There will be however a 'divying' up of those immigrants sanctioned to stay amongst all the EU countries with GB getting her share eventually (whether we like it or not). Essentially the war in the Middle East has to come to a close before refugees/immigrants stop attempting to 'get out'. This is unlikely within the next ten years. Therefore we shall have to 'put up' with the present situation until then. My idea is best. Take them back and burn the boats. Wink Shocked Shocked Smile
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun May 31, 2015 6:47 pm

If I hear of any part time jobs going as dictator of europe I will let you know.

Meanwhile, as you outline, the flow into europe from africa, middle east, ukraine, etc etc is likely to go on for years. To try and stop it would be almost impossible, could create a worse situation than absorbing them.

The numbers over a few years are probably astronomical, but how it will really affect europe remains to be seen, different languages, cultures, ways of going on and versions of religions added to the mix.

It has to be hoped that europe can afford to provide jobs, benefits, and accomodation to meet basic needs very quickly.

There is the probability of Islamic state fighters, criminals, warmongers, disturbed and traumatised people coming along in the tides of refugees, but telling one from the other, only time will tell.

At the moment, Ireland, the UK and Denmark are choosing not to accept refugees, a sort of northern, and perhaps most defensible fringe of europe.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Mon Jun 01, 2015 2:08 pm

The 'northern fringe' already has sufficient populations for its present needs given that we shall still have to continue taking those EU populations that see us as a good bet. Absorption will take its usual course - and be a failure - most immigrants don't want to change their culture or habits.
More is less (satisfaction/acceptable) in this instance. My aft-holders will be the victims of my era's stupidities. Crying or Very sad
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:40 pm

It's to be hoped that refugees into europe will be treated well and behave well, but realistically, mass immigration generally brings problems. A special effort will be needed from within the E.U. to help, process and integrate them. All very expensive.

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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:50 pm

If it is perceived that they are not respecting our culture and try to impose their own it will be the signal for great unrest. There are those who are only waiting for the right excuse to promote dissension and cause mayhem. it's not a good position to be in. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:20 pm

Some european countries, France etc are quite troubled by such problems, mainly with Islam, and will not be pleased if those problems become worse. The corrosive destruction of humanity reported in Islamic State shows how such extremism is the road to hell, many of those fleeing into europe to escape it might well be revolted by it. So, yes it's not a brilliant situation, just have to hope it turns out well as it can.




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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:53 pm

Don't hold your breath. There are always 'some' who mistake 'order' for 'freedom' and will stop at nothing to promote the 'cause'. Islam has only one objective - control. Control brings power and money and there you have the 'real' meaning of Islam. It won't stop until sufficient Islamic fundamentalists are dead and no longer able to spit their rhetoric and venom and influence the less able. That could be a very long and bloody trail. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:13 pm

The aspect of Islam that you describe, now flourishing in war-torn and poverty striken regions, seems, by all and their own reports, to be a poison of the soul, resulting in similar behavior to what we know of the nazis in occupied europe.

I guess the civilised world so to speak is struggling with the idea that simply killing the perpetrators of atrocities en-masse may not solve the problem, which arguably has been made worse by wars and bombings.

Optimists have hoped a more useful type of Islam may emerge or evolve within europe, however it does appear that the Koran contains clear instructions. It must be up to scholars and linguists to throw more light on that.




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Re: Lazin' on a sunny afternoon.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jun 04, 2015 3:43 pm

There will always be those who will corrupt for their own selfish ends - Koran, Talmud, Bible etc.
And there will always be those who will follow without logical thought - especially if offered a better life or a change from present misery. The jam today brigade with the rewards it can bring (for the few). A bit like pyramid selling. The younger they are the more susceptible they are. It has little to do with intelligence and more to do with the 'here and now'. The corruption of the young starts at home, is promoted through ignorance and when it goes wrong is blamed upon outside influences - which is rarely the case. Had the seed not been planted in the first place - it couldn't have grown and gone out of control. Sad. But then we are not the brightest of species regardless of the fact we think we are. Crying or Very sad Mad Crying or Very sad Mad Crying or Very sad Mad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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