The British way

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The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jun 28, 2015 12:09 pm

Now the UK is under pressure to respond to events, massacre of holidaymakers, fighters returning from Syria, coping with Calais, the refugee crisis, negotiating with the E.U. and so on, it's apparent systems of-all-kinds are poorly co-ordinated, not fit for purpouse as they say.

OK for tootling along in a relaxed way, but when things need doing quickly and properly, it becomes apparent, especially to those involved and effected it's a bit of a shambles really.

It's comparative, many countries are much worse in terms of how well their systems work, but the illusion that Britain is fully functioning is a bit thin.

It's not too late, basic structure is in place to rebuild on, even if it is crumbly. The state of the houses of parliament sums it up really, if nothing is done bits will start to fall off, but rebuilding it properly requires a decisive and expensive program of works.

So, what will the British Way be, going forward  Rolling Eyes , more layers of vinegar and brown paper, more work on politicians' hairstyles, or building and developing systems to work efficiently?

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Sun Jun 28, 2015 2:42 pm

To change the habits of a lifetime requires new blood. The problem with the British (double edged as usual) is the new have been taught by the old. Habits are hard to break. It's dysfunctional because of the multitude of mixed signals the 'trainees' have been receiving over the past few decades. Empire to fragmentation in less than 50 years takes some beating. Readjustment takes time - more time than would ever be allowed in this ever more rapidly evolving world. I often use the term 'pendulum swing' and blame most of our ills on allowing the swing into free-fall. A lot of that was due to European Amalgamation and the laws of the few desperate to show how 'good' and 'honest' they could be whilst carefully keeping their own inadequacies hidden from view. We are moving faster than natural law will allow and trying to force the envelope before the letter has arrived. We need to take a few steps back and re-adjust, figure out our 'new' role in the world of nations and THEN make the right, sound of mind, proper moves. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Very Happy
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jun 28, 2015 8:36 pm

If people didn't park their cars on the pavement, the entire traffic system would sieze up.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:12 pm

Too much short-term planning. Councils and governments only plan for the duration of their tenure. Quite understandable for selfish reasoning. How one changes that in order to plan ahead has always been democracies problem such being based upon regular calls on the general public for their input.
In a sense we have the edge with our structure of the 'civil service' whose tenure is based somewhat differently. That however also produces 'stagnation' in the 'way things are done' syndrome. And therein lies the rub. HOW does one promote a general interest in more long-term planning. Your quip regarding the cars and pavements is due to to inadequate long-term planning and short-sightedness with regards evolutionary trends. The call on resources these days is so finite that few industries/social items get the chance for long-term planning - and therein lies the problem. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jun 29, 2015 6:43 pm

The British way of budging up and making do as systems become overloaded, of not planning ahead and thinking things through has serious and expensive consequences in the long run.

Running the police on a politicised shoestring with an overloaded legal system, meant that the grooming gangs, mostly Muslim, were able to operate with impunity for decades, Muslim hate preachers apparently could not be deported or controlled, illegal immigration tolerated, policies of multiculturalism and cultural sensitivity, cheap ways of avoiding things that needed doing, not facing up to the expenses as well as the benefits of mass immigration, have added up to a failure to police Muslim crime and misdemeanours, and London becoming an Islamic terrorist hotspot.

All this has meant the worst aspects of Muslim behavior being tolerated and highlighted, the majority of decent and reasonable Muslims being blamed and so eventually feeling disconnected from the mainstream of our society.

British failures, not only in foreign policy, but in domestic policy have contributed to the situation we have today, and a lot of people have suffered. Not very clever altogether, we need to pull our socks up and understand our own failures. The recent mass butchery on the beaches of the Mediterranean, and the prospect of more to come should make us reflect on our own failings as well as on the evil aspect of Islam that is running loose.  

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:11 pm

I don't disagree. But how you change the habits of a lifetime is not an easy question to answer.
I really do think that we here in these islands will never get to grips with the questions you raise until such times as we have suffered along some cataclysmic event as a consequence.
I am reminded of something my grandfather once said - "W'is not good at seeing things until we've bumped into the buggers. But if yer poke a stick in our ear we have an habit of given yon a nasty bite." I think he was saying we always leave things until the last minute then somehow manage, God knows how, to fix things albeit very painful in the process.
But as you say, it shouldn't get to those stages before we sit up and take notice.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Smile Smile
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:36 pm

Leaving things until it's too late ends up with a lot of people getting badly hurt. That might have been accepted in our grandparents day, but it's not so good now.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:32 pm

I don't think they even thought about it in my grandfathers day. The news travelled slowly and tended to be parochial in its main theme. It was left (although they had little choice) to those who had the money and the power. Their lot, so to speak, was what the powers that be dictated to them in due course. Today we have the news and events as they happen. Dissecting the truth from the lies becomes the main preoccupation with all right thinkers and that isn't always possible - at first glance. More got hurt in my grandfathers day being down to propaganda and downright lies. Less today - but it still goes on.
The problem is democracy. Whilst the best of what is available it has its downsides. Too much of it leaves chaos. Too little even more chaos but with blood attached. Getting the right level and maintaining a straight pathway is the work of genius and we don't get enough of them in our politics in today's world. So - where to go from here -?
If one accepts that 'life' is a lottery. That the few will have to suffer for the many. That nothing is guaranteed or assured then we might, just might, begin to get to grips with a reasonable existence for all (albeit still inequitable in parts). More than that would be cloud-cuckoo land. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:14 am

If the rules and benefits of cloud-cuckooland were explained more clearly to the electorate, more people would vote for it.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:49 pm

The Greeks have just done that a few weeks ago - and look where it has put them. If the kid gets unruly give the little blighter a slap. I think that is just what the EU have done - on purpose.
However - it is no good slapping the kid when you have let him get away with being naughty in the past because he doesn't understand the 'change'. And there we have it.
Keep yer head. Keep to the rules. And be prepared to negotiate. That's the way you get rational progress. As all those who voted UKIP should have known but didn't. Fortunately they didn't number more than the rationales - this time. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Wink Wink Wink Smile Smile Smile Smile
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:05 pm

The Germans had no idea of what was going on in Greece, those who visited had their attention firmly fixed on their beachtowels.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:43 pm

Very good - with the beach towels pun - but then the Germans never did know what was going on until it was too late. They are historically immature to the machinations of their peers and I cannot say I have seen anything over the past six decades to have changed that. They still believe that given their history and placing they should be masters of Europe, primarily because of their innate industriousness and adherences to the law, and that as a consequence the rest should 'agree' with their policies and principals and 'do the right thing'. Unfortunately that leaves nothing for the individual thinker or operator who may wish to live differently. Having set the terms of entry to the EU, everyone, absolutely everyone should adhere come what may. Anomalies are not allowed, in fact they are not even owned in German eyes, therefore they are an aberration and should have traps set down for them and eradicated. The Greek economy and the German economy, as a result of their historical cultures and habits, are planets apart. Which idiot ever thought they wouldn't be?
Well the Germans of course who are used to having their own way - just because 'we' say so.
And there you have it in a nutshell. Without rational/logical negotiation which takes in that not everything in this world is either black or white there will never be a workable 'Union'/ 'Federation'.
Simples really - - - . Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:15 am

The antikythera mechanism seems to give some clues to the basis of Greek attitudes, probably the earliest computer, astonishingly engineered, but built to calculate about human activities and stuff like that, rather than just crunch numbers.

Or, perhaps that's as relevant to modern Greece as Stonehenge is to the UK, which sort of begs the question, does history and culture matter much in todays world, or, is it all about very clever and computerised financial systems?

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:35 pm

You can have all the clever economic systems computerised to the hilt but it doesn't change the status quo - 2+2= + 4. 4 - 6 = -2. and with a negative unless you can find more positives you are in a pickle. Having borrowed too many positives against their negatives the Greek nation is in a pickle. With a culture of indigenous corruption and tax avoidance and a propensity to 'have it easy' the present end result was only a matter of time. I blame the German and French banks for lending sub-prime and the Greek governments for borrowing dangerously. BUT - with the setting up of the Euro, the banknote that would never say no - was it any wonder this situation eventually came along. To save the Euro they will have to let Greece go. To save Greece they will have to let the EU go OR agree a new deal with all EU creditor countries and change the rules to allow protracted borrowing on a much wider/longer term. The danger with that is the value of the Euro will slump on the world markets and become much less a favoured currency for aeons to come. So what would you do? The Germans don't trust the Greeks to play ball with their future administration of the country i.e. tax collections, anti-corruption and over generous welfare state. It's what we call an impasse.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Wink
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:39 am

Same for the Greeks as it is for us, there is a mainstream of people who just want to do proper jobs and live in a settled society, but, it isn't working out so easy. The origional idea of the eurozone was to calm things down and give most people better lives wasn't it?

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:46 pm

Yes. But as with the UN, whose raison d'etre was to align all the worlds nations in one place where they could 'jaw-jaw instead of 'war-war', the idea (whilst laudable in concept) is somewhat less than the actual.

It was the 'Cold War' that prevented European War after the end of the 2nd World War and the 'Marshall Plan' which gave the devastated nations a chance to re-build and prosper again. The EU was created to provide a bulwark against any stronger European nation taking advantage of any smaller, lees equipped, European nation by trading together and as such becoming more dependant on each other. It was never envisaged to become a Super State with one government and one set of laws. Unfortunately - but not unexpected by some - the power mongers saw an opportunity and couldn't resist wheedling their own agendas towards that end. Ergo the present day EU.

Cultures should evolve naturally - not artificially. We never learn.Crying or Very sad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Shocked Shocked Smile
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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:42 pm

So Greece goes the way we all expected it would. Now there will be trouble. It's a recipe for street fighting and God knows what - unless of course they are all too exhausted by the last five years traumas in which case we can all thank the European bankers for getting right this time. (Although I doubt that very much).
They had better watch out for the bogey-men they elected. It's not over yet. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:49 pm

Deception and counter deception, and of course counter counter deception deception have long been the normal methods of cold wars, hot wars, and presumably every other aspect of everyday international relations, cyber wars, trade wars, propaganda wars, etc.

Which leads me to assume that I have no idea what's going on. Cool

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:21 pm

Neither has most of the EU politicians and the Greek people. This is a left-wing/communist type political party in power in Greece. The extremists always have a game-plan which they are quite ready to ditch as the opportunities arise. It's all about power and who rules. It has nothing to do with the good of the people - although it is always heavily cloaked as such.
My guess. A deal, get feet under table, renege on deal, lie to the people it's the other guy's fault, get another deal and keep the reins of power carefully tucked away for the next time.
It will only unravel if the Greek people see through the lies and deceit. The problem with that is that they may take to violence - the Greeks have a propensity for violent street battles. One would never have guessed they are the cradle of democracy - tch. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Shocked Shocked
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jul 12, 2015 7:27 pm

Greece and it's islands is an extremely central strategic region, seems rather bizarre that europe has let it become so vulnerable.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:55 pm

Mainland Northern Europe has never had much to do with the Med. From a strategic POV only Britain has seen it as vital to the European under-belly. It only became important to Germany during the Second World War as a way of securing the Balkan region and circumventing the British hold on the Med and Gibraltar. It was also to secure the Polesti oilfields in Romania why the Germans finally helped out the Italians to invade and conquer in 1941. From an economic POV Greece has never figured in the grander European scale of things. Much too poor economically to be of any great use.

I foresee BIG trouble in Greece if the people see through this latest debacle. It is a recipe for disaster. The Greeks don't forgive easily. It's not in their nature. The people have been conned and misled for decades and now the chickens are coming home to roost. Watch this space. Sad Sad
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:52 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Financial_Control

Perhaps Greece and it's islands is more of a strategic buffer zone now than it was, but is quite a defensible area to protect with air power, so should be ok.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:56 pm

I should hate the Greeks having to 'implode' again. They are nothing if not a political football to be kicked around and around as wills the European agenda. They are prone to civil disorder and civil war especially the younger end who see 'pride of place' as more important than 'rational negotiation'.

I don't know if this time around they will just accept the situation (another 10 years of pain) or whether they will take to the streets again in a bid to get a different government and a different way-out.
There are already casualties - but this situation could result in thousands more and 'bloody' ones at that.

It's time to wipe the debts out. Insist on no more borrowing and let them reintroduce the drachma whilst providing international aid to the most needy.

Given a couple of years they will sort things out - hopefully along more rational lines as regards social and fiscal requirements. Time Europe butted out.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Sad Sad Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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Re: The British way

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:10 am

Yes, we have to hope things will pan out as well as they can for the Greek people. The actual politics in Greece itself may not have much bearing on everyday life for them. The Greek people are living in the centre of an international situation beyond their control. That's how it looks from here. How the citizens of Athens understand it might be different.

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Re: The British way

Post  Atlas on Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:39 pm

They know when they are suffering (albeit not what we older end would call 'suffering') and will react accordingly. It's a shame they have been mislead for so long, at least 20 years, because that will have an effect on their expectations.

We shall have to wait and see. I understand that at least the IMF have come clean. Not before time.
What is more galling is that the EU politicians MUST know that the Greek situation is really untenable and to save face the whole bunch of them would rather push the boundaries (with all that such could entail) than be honest and call it (in the case of Greece) a day. Cowards the lot of them. Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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