Lessons will be learned.

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Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:34 pm

Many people are absolutely seething hopping mad about the incompetence, if that's what it was, that led to the Grenfell Tower fire becoming a huge, inescapeable and deadly inferno. There are calls this evening for those responsible to be tarred and feathered and chased around the town! Seems quite a reasonable response. Reviving the old custom of tarring and feathering may contribute to higher standards generally.

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  johnb on Thu Jun 15, 2017 12:37 pm

Interesting...

These are unrelated issues, but point to a culture of complacency to identified risks.

I suspect that part of the issue here is that 'risk assessments' are carried out demonstrating that risk is acceptable, but that these risk assessments, required by statute law are not sufficiently robust. One hopes the question will be asked at the inquests and that the inquests and subsequent public enquiry will get to the bottom of the problem.
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:55 pm

Building regs. Really that's an 'end of'. Who is responsible? Nobody is the quick answer. One size fits all. I also suspect that council buildings do not fall under as robust a regime as was recently introduced for private buildings which are tenanted - but i could be wrong. I can't believe that the building regs would allow for potentially combustible cladding in the case of multiple storey buildings but it seems that it is. The fire spread was due to combustible materials on the 'outside' of the tower being fanned by a robust wind sheer (as can be seen from the mode of spread) and the consequent desire for the fire to draw in oxygen from outside setting each flat on fire as it progressed upwards, as all fires do. This was a disaster waiting to happen - and could have been seen as such by any fire expert with a knowledge of the building material being used. But did those 'two' things go together anywhere - and - was it spotted and kept under wraps due to 'costs' a change of materials would have incurred. I don't see a 'witch-hunt' scenario here but I do see a possible 'whitewash'. Again - Lessons will be learned.Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Jun 16, 2017 12:37 am

Smoke and flames are still visible at the Grenfell Tower now, 36 hours later, as the fire burns itself out.
It was impossible to fight the fire above the 12th floor of the 23 story block.
Children were thrown out of windows, burning people hurled themselves from the tower.
Police used riot shields to protect firefighters from falling debris (molten plastic?) .
A disaster, how did it happen?
Fragmented government unable to cope with updating or understanding building regulations.
Selfish, profit driven politics, uncaring about issues of housing or safety.
London overcrowded and 'unlivable'; a bloated property market, unaffordable for 'ordinary' people.
Grenfell had a history of problems with power surges.
Fire safety, building regs inspectors, and computer engineers generally don't understand the effects of power surges.
B.A. computer systems were recently disabled by power surges.
One possible explanation for an exploding fridge.
Low budget (smart looking?) polyethelene exterior cladding with a gap behind, ostensibly to allow an air flow to reduce damp, creating a 'chimmney' effect.
Media have repeatedly asked, why didn't the sprinkler system work?
The fact that a 23 story housing block containing families and the elderly, would not have a sprinkler system is difficult for anyone to comprehend.
Grenfell had no communal fire alarm, the idea being each flat has a seperate smoke alarm, so people will not be alarmed in case of fire
and consequently overcrowd the one inadequate staircase, impeding firefighters from entering.
 A 'ruptured gas main' has been mentioned.
Difficult access for fire engines,  one of the many safety hazards the residents association had been complaining of to the 'arm's length' management for years, delayed the start of fighting the fire. Seems just about everything that could be, was wrong.
According to the bbc today, People still wander area in a state of shock.
Thousands of people havebeen evacuated from their homes.
Not enough competent help for from any authority is being provided. Volunteers are doing their best to cope.
Firechief says it will take weeks to rake through cinders to identify human remains.
It's expected the death toll will be high.
Will lessons be learned? This may be beyond the scope of the fobbing-off department.

Thankyou firefighters, heroic.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:54 pm

Friday 16th
Things around Grenfell not going brilliantly.
Many traumatised people still milling about the area.
Some talk from politicians and officials, but very little apparent coherence in identifying casualties and getting information to relatives.
Official statements made in slippery fob-offolese languge don't answer relevant questions, and are not re-assuring.
As more first-hand accounts emerge, from those who escaped, those who saw, from firefighters etc.; and what is going on now in the aftermath, the horrible reality and sick situation behind it is apparent.

Again, well done firefighters and volunteers working to help.

Saturday
Sharna Leuschner, 21, who lived opposite Grenfell Tower described how pieces of burning cladding flew towards her building.
"It was coming onto our balconies, they could have caught light as well. It was terrifying,”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/grenfell-tower-refurbishment-used-cheaper-cladding-tenants-accused/

How realistic was the fear, that lumps of burning plastic falling from the Grenfell tower could have set light to nearby tower blocks?  Might depend on which way the wind was blowing, and on what exactly fire-resistant means in this context. Not the same as flame-resistant?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDJBdXf89w

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:18 pm

And I will repeat. The security of the 'State' takes priority over the security of the people for without the 'State' you have no cohesive society and the people are fragmented and thus totally vulnerable and a danger to each other. ERGO -whatever safeguards the 'State' comes first - and that means any methods of removing the 'State' from culpability in any form is paramount. Thus - stop looking for answers that encourage blame towards the 'State'. Smaller more worthy victims will be provided for the 'rent-a-mob' to chew over. Look forward towards another 10 year 'probe' that will die from the memory as the time passes. There will be no prosecutions whereby building regs and tendered costs are concerned unless 'bribery' can be proven. Give it up now - as it's a lost cause before it begins. The best that will got will be a survey on all social housing over 4 storeys high and a removal of poor quality claddings. A building regs restructuring. And a programme of demolition and renewal whereby the costs don't add up. But as for anything more. Forget it. That's not the way it all works.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:06 pm

If there had been a prompt, well organised rescue and recovery effort to care for survivors of the Grenfell Tower fire, and straight answers to straight questions, the public mood might have been quite different.

At the time of high and emotive national concern, Mrs. May has said and done exactly the wrong things in the wrong order at the wrong time. Can she recover? Unlikely. By contrast, the Queen gave a masterclass in how to behave.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:56 pm

If you're looking for something for all times and for all men you're looking in vain. People with those capabilities are as rare as hen's teeth. She is what she is, a capable administrator locked within her own parameters. She's no Churchill or Pitt the Younger. The question we have here is 'who' is any better in the present rank and file? Or 'who' in the opposition can be trusted not to sink the boat with archaic fabrications of Utopia? Who amongst them all can be trusted to deliver the democracy we voted for? Who amongst them all will be 'the best of a bad job'? There's nothing down for a bloodbath given the course we are on and the course we will need to steer over the next decade. I for one have had quite enough of talentless megalomaniac wannabee's. Time to settle down and move softly. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:02 am

As more about the Grenfell tower fire emerges, the failures leading to it, and following from it, only become clearer. Seems there are still lessons to be learned.


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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:31 pm

A futile statement - expounding the bleedin' obvious. Man will ALWAYS have lessons to learn. He isn't perfect and was never meant to be so. If we all went the way of the Messiah we would still ALL have lessons to learn and not learn all of them. We are what we are - a very imperfect species and as long as that exists (forever) we will make mistakes and have lessons to learn. It's either that or 'back to the caves' and even then we will still burn the tiger steak or the blackberry jam. Accidents (waiting to happen) for that is what this was are caused by carelessness or incompetence or ignorance or sometimes a combination of all three. That's man for you in a bleedin' nutshell. Add our natural arrogance and you have sufficient tinder for a million conflagrations and more. Sleep well.Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:04 pm

The Independent newspaper reports on difficulty arriving at reliable numbers of fatalities, and amnesty for any illegal immigrants involved. That Grenfell Tower was home to council tenants, private renters, homeowners, subtenants and people staying with family and friends.

Volunteers, charities  and local people report "swathes" of undocumented migrants, illegal subtenants, who fled and disappeared or may have died in the fire.

Phillipinos and Moroccans, Sudanese, Eritrean and Ethiopian families not on any lists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-disaster-latest-residents-families-victims-homeless-immigration-status-migrants-a7798051.html

Have government and authorities woken up to the complexity, scale and implications of this disaster as yet? With the local authority sitting on millions of pounds reserve, and, everyone says, not doing enough, it doesn't look like it.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:23 pm

It's all about the money -. Local councils get 'grants' for numbers of refugees and for 'social' problems. The problem with freedom of movement means just that - we move where we want, when we want, how we want. We keep outside the system if we are illegal and utilise the system when we are not. The system cannot handle it. The system operators can't keep abreast of it. But never mind eh -. Just let it all hang out -. The weakest will go to the wall, the smartest will grab all the cash. It's a jungle out there folks - and do we care. Not a bit of it. For this is the 'future' -.

And you expect the rich to care -! Welcome 200,000 refugees (or whatever) who landed upon the European coastline in the last 6 months. Welcome friends - welcome -. We are so rich here we don't care if you 'all' come. FFS.
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:21 am

There are so many questions arising from the Grenfell disaster, where do you start?

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:35 pm

Who changed the specifications - and why? Was it an illegal act (in the sense of 'against the building regulations in force at the time'). As a consequence once the fire has reached the illegal materials which resulted in 100 deaths and 20million pounds worth of damage, not to mention 20 million in compensation and renewal costs, is the charge one of involuntary manslaughter and should they (whomsoever) stand trial before a jury of their peers given the trial which will inevitably precede by media before the actual court case itself? What's betting it never happens -!!!!!Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:58 pm

And, whose idea was the hydrogen cyanide?

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:27 pm

Natures. That's how the planets, suns and everything else came about. Physics and chemistry. Marvellous stuff - if you want to be bored to death. A by-product of very high heating points and how one element turns into another when mixed and heated -. Simples really. Shocked
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:24 pm

There are too many, an accumulation, of potentially dangerous toxic substances and chemicals in the food we eat, the soil, the water, the air we breathe, cars and the buildings we live in. Many are known about, some are banned in other countries.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:16 pm

But it is exactly that (of which you speak) that enables us to advance our knowledge and move towards our ultimate extinction or to our ultimate destination - scourge of the universe. Wink Wink
Everything is physics and we are 'everything' ourselves, in the sense of our infinitesimal corner of the universe, and without it we cannot continue further making a bloody nuisance of ourselves whilst we plot our ultimate extinction. It's not rocket science - although in truth - it is included. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:42 pm

There is no need to have such toxic technology. If and when more facts are known about the Grenfell fire, we might learn more lessons about deadly combinations of toxic materials and careless incompetence.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Sun Jun 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Well you have a great deal more faith in the human condition than do I. The insulations used these days cannot combine such things as asbestos or similar as a non-flammable items because of their other properties that are injurious to health. They therefore go for a waterproof/insulating composition which invariably has 'some' flammable properties but which need excess heat to make them actually burn. This 'heat' was caused by the flue-draught on the Grenfell and no doubt the actual fixing method used. The effect - a flaming torch -. I suspect the building industry provided the insulating properties and weatherproofed sandwiching to comply with energy saving EU directives and that there are a number of different 'qualities' of the cladding available. I also suspect the councils and more importantly the architects select the cheapest where costs are at a premium. The building regulations will show that nobody broke the law - unless of course - someone cut the costs further without permission. That will have to wait for the Public Enquiry. Accidents, no matter what, will happen from time to time. 150 killed today from a road tanker accident which caught fire and blew up killing all the people around who had gone to 'steal' the leaking fuel. It's man -. He's an idiot. What else can one say?Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:31 pm

The human condition can certainly be managed rather better than it usually is. Rockwool insulation seems the safest option. The sort of disasters we have now are less the product of an expanding technology, as they used to be, more like the chaos of a collapsing society. These big inquiries seem to come to very little.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:49 pm

The loss to society of 10% of its number is a constant equation. The more of us the more of us are expendable. In reality 'risk' has always been part of life and some will 'lose' the struggle through one means or another - that's just how it is.
Attempts will be made to 'lessen' the loss but man being what he is will always find ways of keeping 'up' the numbers. Where man fails in this then nature will take over. We have a landslip - today a thousand lose their lives whereas yesterday it was only 500. The more realistic of us take this as just a part of today's society. Some will survive - some won't. End of. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:04 am

Is that realism or fatalism? It is realistic to expect higher casualties in an overcrowded situation. Where is the housing crisis going? Predictions are, for employment to become computerised and roboticised over the coming decade, leaving a large, unemployable population needing housing and all other services.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:21 pm

And it is to there that our politicians should be looking - and acting. Robotic industry will decimate the present(future) working populations like never before. If one takes the Spinning Jenny and the Luddites we find their 'worries' were unfounded as the invention only promoted more industrialisation and consequently more employment (albeit miserable and slavish to say the least) making the Luddite movement move across to Unionism (better conditions). Will 'robotisation do the same? Some say it will enhance and provide for even more employment because of bigger and better inventions towards the cyber-age? But what happens during the transitional period and are governments of the world ready for such an event? - - - -- Discuss - - - - ! Wink
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:22 pm

Are world governents prepared for the future? Our own archaic systems here are showing serious strain, need renewing. Basics, health care and housing etc. in long term trouble, apparently approaching crisis. With that and increasingly, cyber attacks, power surges, political instability, growing numbers of displaced and homeless people, etc. the scale and backlog of what needs doing doesn't appear to leave the UK well placed to adapt to a roboticised future. More of a 'firefighting' situation, at least for the foreseeable.

Might be easier for countries coming from a standing start, with less developed systems, starting from year zero. Countries with surplus population to cope with and manage, and ongoing wars and conflicts have the biggest problems. Those with lower population may be best placed to organise for a roboticised era. The political, administrative and management work needed to provide for a large population is enough to cope with.

Is it basically a matter of countries investing or borrowing money to establish a start and a lead in new manufacturing? Politics and industrial knowhow seem to live in separate worlds. UK is traditionally inventive. Graphene technology, invented here, looked promising as a chance to establish a lead in manufacture a while back, but that didn't seem to happen, perhaps technology in the far east has already made graphene technology obsolete?

If there is a strong reality in this prediction of automated and roboticised industry and societies, where does that leave China, India, Russia, with their massive, potentially surplus populations? H.G.Wells was good at writing about possible futures, but only had the perspective of his times, do we have any equally good authors writing realistically about our probable futures today? As well as roboticisation, nano-technology and the bio-sciences are moving us towards a rather different world. There may be a widening gap appearing between our technology and lives of ordinary people, rather reminiscent of the morlocks and elois.

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