Lessons will be learned.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:54 pm

It certainly needs far better 'visionary' governance than we have at the present time. Unfortunately the older generation can only react to events as they happen, not having had the foresight to see the problems coming in the first place. Two typical examples are the financial crash of 2008 and the Grenfell Tower inferno of today. In both instances the de-regulation of the 1980's brought about those events. De-regulation was seen as a good thing, and it was in many instances, however - some relaxation of 'allowances' and consequent 'bad practices' could have been foreseen especially where people are concerned. The question should always be asked - will the unscrupulous take pecuniary advantage of the situation and will that result in bad practice. If the answer is 'yes' then no de-regulation should have taken place. Both the above examples are consistent with that 'understanding'. And of course politicians are not sufficiently educated enough or don't have the time or the wherewithal to take those points on board when 'whipped' to voting through legislation. That is supposed to be why we have the House of Lords - and that in itself is another question - does a body such as that contain enough 'honest' people to enable the legislation to be either stopped or modified in order to 'stop' such malpractices? It really comes to down to sufficient 'visionary' and worldly people being elected to parliament in the first place. How one gets to that situation 'God only knows'. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:38 pm

Are our politicians really that gormless? Of course people will take advantage of lack of regulation, lack of scrutiny and loopholes generally.

The political and administrative systems we have in place are unsuitable to cope with our ever growing, internationalised population and the complexity of our society. People are angry because authorities are unable to say who was living in Grenfell Tower, and cannot give an accurate death toll, some suspect a cover-up, but it may well be the authorities really are in too much a state of disorganised chaos to be anywhere near accurate.

Residents of some tower blocks have been reported doing their own amatuer tests on cladding, breaking bits off and trying to set fire to them. Not ideal, but that's the way things go when people lose confidence in the authorities.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:50 pm

What it really comes down to is a society out of control. Freedom to do and act as one likes has one important factor missing. Such a system only breeds chaos. Society can only exist in harmony providing that it has a set of rules by which everyone is 'governed' and to which everyone adheres willingly. We have just released ourselves from a form of society that aspires to those conditions - i.e. the EU. There was nothing wrong with the concept of a Super State always and providing the participants i.e. the compliant nations, are prepared to accept the removal of national sovereignty for a collective continental sovereignty. We find that this isn't the case when it comes down to sovereign nations - as time will show. However. If we wish to remain a sovereign nation it is incumbent upon us to provide nationally a set of rules by which we live that are democratic and acceptable to all the citizens involved. And now I come to the point -. Removing rules of conduct for the sake of removing a plethora of 'red tape' should always be 'covered' by sensible oversight as 'man' will seek to profit from it if he can. (It's endemic in his nature). No government can allow 'man' his head so to speak or to fall back on what is euphemistically called 'good practice'. The Banking sector and now the Building sector show what some will 'tweak' in order to make those 'extra' bucks. All societies must be controlled by one form or another to keep sanity and order. The trick is - finding the right balances in order to create the feeling of 'self-determination' and 'freedom of action'. Wink
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:21 pm

That should be easy enough, with all the lessons learned now, from Suez to Grenfell, we must have the most educated government and society anyone could possibly hope for.


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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:45 pm

You might say that. I couldn't possibly comment -. But I will -.

Lessons are never learned. In that each new generation becomes self-absorbed in itself. The result is that very few look back and remember the lessons learned previously. Man's capacity to ignore his history is infinite. One could say it is because of his insatiable 'flight' towards a 'future' and all that such a prize might offer. Longevity of life. Eradication of decease. That sort of thing. Which encompasses all of his short time here on this planet. Ergo - Lessons are rarely learned that have any meaningful tenure on which to behave and act. Likewise his perceptions of the future. We are stuck in our 'time' and it takes all of that short time to survive the present -. Sad isn't it. But that's the way it is. Hope you had a nice holiday and have returned raring to go -. lol. Wink Wink Wink Wink
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Jul 16, 2017 12:45 pm

Yes, does seem a bit that way, it's always rather unconvincing when 'they' say "Lessons will be learned".

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:31 pm

Yes. Only after the event and then not always the 'right' lesson. For example Grenfell Tower and all the others. What was the lesson learned? Oh er let's see - er - building regulations, fire regulations, high rise constructions, density and occupation, social attitudes, social compliances, er - hmm which lessons and when and where? Too many lessons too many changes too many careless attitudes.
And so the old adage - we learn by our mistakes is a flawed concept because all the Grenfell Tower mistakes have happened before and in and amongst them all we have 'forgotten' those mistakes of yesteryear by which we 'should' have 'learned' previously - which were forgotten because people DON'T learn their history and DON'T therefore KNOW that mistakes are being made. Deregulation is simply another way of saying remove red-tape to allow the people to be sensible and honest of their own volition. Cobblers -. Since when could you ever trust the 'people'?????? And so we have the odd catastrophe - man-made by an imperfect species. Surprise. Surprise. So far this century we have had numerous failings through previous de-regulation -. That's the lesson we SHOULD learn. All the rest is superfluous -.
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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  cyfrifia on Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:25 pm

Difficult to know which is worse, lack of regulations, or, badly thought out, over-complicated and unenforced regulations.

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Re: Lessons will be learned.

Post  Atlas on Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:14 pm

Just don't de-regulate. Review regulations at regular intervals to accommodate the evolution of the 'time'. But to scrap regulations wholesale (as we did with the banks and investment comps) in order to relax and free-up business and leave the regulating to 'people's virtue's' is nothing short of ludicrous. Since when are 'people' virtuous where money is concerned? If a regulation has become too complicated or unenforceable then a 'review' in order to re-construct in light of events is a far more sensible approach. We shall see when the report on Grenfell comes out that the 'nigger in the woodpile' (and yes it's not PC - so what) has been the lack of adherence to regulations that were in force at the time of refurbishments. Or a relaxation of regulations enforced some 30 years ago or more. Human indolence and incompetence will also figure quite broadly. We shall see in time -. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes
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