Effective Opposition.

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Effective Opposition.

Post  teamplayer2 on Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:52 pm

Do we need effective opposition in Rochdale as one person put it. Does this mean forming an alternative party in the town of Rochdale who will put the finances and the people of Rochdale first rather than thinking about big pay rises for a few.

There could be to much apathy in Rochdale for people to even care. What alternative have we got?
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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Atlas on Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:40 am



In a nutshell teamplayer2 - YES.
Such a policy in the national sphere would founder from a lack of support but where 'local politics' are concerned i.e. directly advancing the town and its people regardless of all else, such a political/social block would have far more meaning. An example would be the few that have stood out to save a hospital or something similar which has attracted the 'local' vote to is favour. I would venture a word of advice - leave the politics out completely. Mentioning political parties as means of identification/positioning would kill off the 'good intention' of the venture and its aims.
If you really want the 'people' to band together for their 'rights' and 'freedoms' and give the place some worth and pride, then it would seem that such a course is the only option open to you - as all others have quite obviously failed.Smile

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:30 pm

People did get together to form a new party a few years ago; the SDP that later became the even more awful Lib Dems.

Politicians have done many good things in Rochdale over the decades but far too many stupid things that have made the word Rochdale a synonym for Scroteville. A rotten borough par excellence.

Far too many councillors are simply not up to the job.

Far too much patronage and political opportunism



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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Atlas on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:38 am




So get rid of them.    But don't vote in others on a political ticket else you will get the same old same old.
Teamplayer2 is right in asking - how do you 'break' the thread. There's only one way. New people on a ticket of 'looking after the town and its people'. The politics will come later. But keep the POLITICS out of any new alliances.Rolling Eyes


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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:53 am

Hinch wrote:Politicians have done many good things in Rochdale over the decades but far too many stupid things that have made the word Rochdale a synonym for Scroteville. A rotten borough par excellence.[/size]
I'm trying to imagine the indignation that Hinch would summon up if a Conservative (or, even worse, a Lib Dem!!) had called Rochdale 'Scroteville'.  You should apologise to the people of this town, or at least withdraw the remark.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:06 am



Yeah... right.

I'm just taking my lead from the Daily Wail and others. I could have called it Chavtown on which website it makes a frequent appearance.

I have been far more scathing about Labour than about the Tories or Lib Dems unlike you who is locked into 'my party right or wrong' mode.

In many ways PT, you highlight the issue in a nutshell. Far too many apparatchiks defending their parties to the death and far too few pulling together and looking for real solutions.



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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:15 am

If you are taking your lead from the Daily Mail then that only emphasises both my complaint and your ignorance. The fact that you immediately make the debate personal highlights it again.

I haven't made any comment on the rightness and wrongness of any of the parties, simply your labelling of a whole town as scrotes. Most of my family and many of my friends are from this town. You do not get to call them scrotes.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:28 am



So, are we going to meet up behind the bike sheds to sort this out man to man then?

I and most of my family too come from Rochdale. You don't have a monopoly on claiming your Rochdale roots.

You take things far too literally HT. Piles playing you up?

If I refer to Heywood by the name Monkey Town, does that mean that I believe that everyone there is a monkey or is it merely that I am using a colloqialism?

As for personalising things, I stand corrected Mr Pot.

Yours etc Mr Kettle.



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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:47 am


I haven't claimed a monopoly on my Rochdale roots Hinch, why would I?  The town is full of people I don't know and never will - which is one of the many reasons I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush.

You not really trying to convince me that calling this 'Scroteville' or a 'rotten borough' is a colloquialism, are you?  Purlease.  Credit us all with a little sense at least.

If I have personalised things beyond anything said on a thread on a thread then I genuinely apologise, but I'm fairly sure that I haven't.

Regards

Mr P

PS My piles are none of your business.


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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:17 am

Hinch wrote:

Politicians have done many good things in Rochdale over the decades but far too many stupid things that have made the word Rochdale a synonym for Scroteville. A rotten borough par excellence.

That is what I actually said. In the popular imagination, Rochdale has become a town that is seen by and large, as a national metaphor for social, political and economic ills. I need make no apology for this.

It used to be a town I was reasonably proud to come from but isn't any longer. To me, the bad outweighs the good. I agree, that is a point that could be argued but to me, the place is at the bottom of far too many league tables.

That having been said, there is much good going on and I have reported on this. However, as TP intimates, politics in the town needs to take a new direction. Significant mistakes have been made under this administration and these continue to make the place a national laughing stock.

I think, on the whole, the town has been badly served by politics and all parties have some culpability.

This thread is about the lack of an effective opposition and I agree with that. I don't think it's just about numbers either. The split in the Lib Dems has been far from helpful here but a party that cannot even unite its own councillors can hardly lay claim to the loyalty of the electorate. Labour should have learned from this but hasn't.

The Tories only really continue on the basis that they could find themselves in some future coalition.

It will be interesting to see how UKIP develop locally and whether or not they can influence political change. I suspect not.

Until and unless there is political change, I fear that Rochdale will languish in the lower league; socially, economically and politically.


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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Mulldog on Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:27 am

teamplayer2 wrote:Do we need  effective opposition in Rochdale as one person put it. Does this mean forming an alternative party in the town of Rochdale who will put the finances and the people of Rochdale first rather than thinking about big pay rises for a few.

There could be to much apathy in Rochdale for people to even care. What alternative have we got?  
I would gladly assist anybody wishing to stand as a true independent in this borough. Canvasing, leaflet pushing etc. I'm not sure where we'd get a battle bus from however?
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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:58 am



I wonder if Carl Faulkener will stand again?

He fought a good campaign last time and only narrowly lost. His politics are too right wing for my tastes but credit where it's due, the electorate were impressed with his alternative to the status quo.



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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:37 am

Hinch wrote:Rochdale has become a town that is seen by and large, as a national metaphor for social, political and economic ills. I need make no apology for this.
A disingenuous answer. The term 'scrote' has nothing to do with the ills of the town however they are caused. It is a direct reference to the people of Rochdale.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:51 am



So you think that 'scrote' a general term for the folks of Rochdale eh? How interesting. You are taking your penchant for carrying on an argument to ridiculous lengths. I was not the one to coin the word 'Scroteville,' nor the first to apply it to towns with dozens of boarded up shops, Foodbank, high unemployment and payday loan companies. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Scroteville

No PT, scrotes are to be found everywhere. Et in Arcadio ego and all that. I take it you are familiar with the works of Poussin or Roddy Doyle's description of some of his home town's inhabitants as 'the Living Dead'.

Don't take things too literally in your efforts to keep a cold pot boiling.




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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:28 pm

Hinch wrote:So you think that 'scrote' a general term for the folks of Rochdale eh? How interesting.
Not at all, but you obviously do.

Yes, I am familiar with the works of Poussin and Roddy Doyle. It's interesting that you compare yourself to them. It's not a comparison that has ever occurred to me.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  cyfrifia on Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:35 pm

Rochdale may have been something of a 'laughing stock' some time ago. The impression now is more seriously worrying (and depressing) 'Shameless' type humor is past it's 'use by' date.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  johnb on Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:30 pm




So Marx had his 'Lumpen proletariat" Roddy Doyle had his living dead, Rochdale has a collection of scrotes - working as party activists, council management and general town lowlife.  What does this show?

Basically that it is time someone "Took out the trash..."


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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:34 pm



You can take out the trash JB but can you guarantee that it will be collected bearing in mind last winter's fiasco when people were waiting a month?

Just a thought.



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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Guest on Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:13 pm

Hinch wrote:    Extract

Far too many councillors are simply not up to the job.

Far too much patronage and political opportunism




That's polite !  - " Hear, Hear, " not forgetting some political buffoons ....  


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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Atlas on Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:15 am

There, there. Settle down now.   - - - - -That better now is it?

And therein reads the lesson-.    How any of you ever expect to make changes or influence when your first form of defence is to race for the 'politics' card or attempt to make argument by taking personal offence out of context is beyond me. You don't stand an earthly. It's back to the kindergarten time again. For Pete's sake learn - then perhaps you just might get somewhere. And to do that you must first put 'aside' previous perceptions or argument - they have no place when discussing the topic herein.

Deep breaths - - - - - . And start again.
New people. New directions. AND NO POLITICS.   There. That wasn't difficult was it - - - ?
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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Hinch on Mon Oct 21, 2013 6:38 am


To be fair to my sparring partner, go easy on him. The only exercise his mind gets is jumping to conclusions. He doesn't understand the flaw in the following philosophical trap:-

A table has four legs.,
A dog has four legs.
Ergo a dog is a table.

This is known as a syllogism and was described by Plato. An old philosophy joke in the form of a syllogism goes:-

"An old cowboy goes into a bar and orders a drink. As he sits there sipping his whisky, a young lady sits down next to him. ... She says, 'I'm a lesbian. I spend my whole day thinking about women. ...' A little while later, a couple sits down next to the old cowboy and asks him, 'Are you a real cowboy?' He replies, 'I always thought I was, but I just found out I'm a lesbian.'"

This is what politicians often do to advance a political argument. In the context of what Hinch is supposed to have said, this can be reworked as follows:-

Hinch refers to Rochdale as Scroteville.
A scrote is a derogatory term for a person
Ergo he is saying that he thinks everyone in the town is a scrote and is therefore attacking my friends and family.

The conclusion is therefore based on a false premise.

We saw a version of it in the press this week:-

A minister is speaking about high fuel bills.
In the course of conversation, he admits that he sometimes wears a jumper at home.
Ergo he must be telling everyone to reduce their fuel bills by wearing a jumper.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Prudence Tempered on Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:30 am

What I actually started off by saying is that if a national politician (particularly a Conservative or Lib Dem) had labelled Rochdale in such a lazy and general way as 'Scroteville' then I suspect Hinch would have thrown his hands up in outrage. I would have fully supported him in that. When his mentors at the Daily Mail do the same I complain to them and at least they reply in a less hissier fit.

If this was a single incident then it wouldn't be so bad, but it happens to be just the latest from Hinch in a long list of him denigrating this town and its people.

But when he's picked up on it he goes into his usual rant about party apparatchiks and then some personal knockabout stuff. He's a bit less circumspect when dishing it out, but hey ho!

Thanks for the Platonic (sic) fable though. Totally irrelevant, but thanks.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Chill37 on Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Hinch wrote:

I wonder if Carl Faulkener will stand again?

He fought a good campaign last time and only narrowly lost. His politics are too right wing for my tastes but credit where it's due, the electorate were impressed with his alternative to the status quo.



Hope he does. I may not agree 100% with him. But he certainly ruffled a few feathers. Shame there isnt an election this week. Would riomp home. Just hope all the electorate memories will last till May next year.

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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:04 pm

"Atlas   There, there. Settle down now.   - - - - -That better now is it?

And therein reads the lesson-.    How any of you ever expect to make changes or influence when your first form of defence is to race for the 'politics' card or attempt to make argument by taking personal offence out of context is beyond me.  You don't stand an earthly.   It's back to the kindergarten time again.   For Pete's sake learn - then perhaps you just might get somewhere.   And to do that you must first put 'aside' previous perceptions or argument - they have no place when discussing the topic herein.

Deep breaths - - - - - . And start again.
New people. New directions. AND NO POLITICS.   There. That wasn't difficult was it - - - ?  



You are right Atlas. Yes I would love to have ago. But the first thing in Rochdale seem to turn everything into politics and down the drain again with name calling. Though my statement was saying that Hinch mentioned an effective opposition. What I would like to do is to see about fighting for Rochdale. Look at how the finances of the Council Tax Payers money is used and how the money could be or should be used for services and look at what we term is waste.

Typical of Rochdale is to stick the boot in each other first and then think about the hard working and council tax payer of Rochdale last. I would like to see quality shops and businesses come into Rochdale. No easy task for anyone I should imagine. Though if anyone did stand the first hurdle in Rochdale is to overcome the dirty politics that appears to be dished out in Rochdale. The general voters of Rochdale and their view  appear to be a lost cause with the main politics of Rochdale.

I could not believe what I saw and heard at the council chambers last week. The thing is we need is a good council to look and debate what  the town needs are and less time at wasting much needed surplus money found in how to get a better deal for a pay rise for a few in the council. When the money should be going into looking at giving better services to people in Rochdale. £27,000 of much needed money spent on consultants just to say how to give someone else a £40,000 pay rise. WHAT IS ALL THAT ABOUT?

NEARLY AS BAD AS THE LIB DEMS WANTING TO SPEND OR DID SPEND OVER £100,000 ON A PEOPLES CHAMPION. Which seems to be forgotten about.  I cannot understand and never fail to be amazed how money is wasted in Rochdale on such vanity and other projects that we see.

£27,000 on consultants. If I had to spend that much waste on consultants on which the councillors and managers which was obvious the reaction you would get from the public. Then it would be time to step down.

Also I thought of Lib Dems at the time on PEOPLES CHAMPION. I thought if you got voted in as a councillor you did qualify as a peoples champion to do your best for the voters of Rochdale and try to sort the services for the people of Rochdale. If you failed in the task then you would be voted out by the voters. Then replaced by someone better who could or may be able to do a better job as a councillor. We appear to be failing so far in Rochdale.

The only thing we seemed to have achieved in Rochdale over the years is someone failed to protect vulnerable young people in Rochdale from perverts when it was first mentioned years ago. The services in Rochdale failed to act on the first reports and allowed it to carry on. Appears they wanted to appear to be political correct in case they offended anyone and appeared to think that was the young peoples choice of life style at the time. There are other scandals that have hit this town which we have all seen in the media.

The politics in Rochdale is not always for the good and we never seem to make a good stride in the positive, then when we do there is someone  or something to knock us all back into the negatives of Rochdale.

I would like to see new faces and people who care about Rochdale stand for the council .All we get is the same old cycle of politics. We should look at the services and the finance of Rochdale first to give Rochdale a fighting chance and put politics last. Be more positive and for all communities to work together and not against one another. Overcome what went wrong in the past and replace what is better and stop the waste of money on such stupid things as £27,000 ON CONSULTANTS to give someone a pay rise.

As for me standing as a councillor? I wish I could but I am not sure if I could even hack it. Anyway, too busy caring.

As for Prudence Tempered!scratch
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Re: Effective Opposition.

Post  Atlas on Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:24 am


I'm afraid TP2 it's the same old story. When something begins to 'fail' people look for reasons - usually scapegoats. This becomes more endemic as the combatants scrap amongst themselves and with others who get involved. The end result is a collapse of the whole structure leaving behind a husk of disillusioned, emotionally upset participants none of which can singularly rebuild. Rochdale has been failing for many years both economically and culturally. The main political parties haven't the answer because they deem the answer lies 'outside' on a wider spectrum - usually Westminster, in the guise of hand-outs or special help - when instead the crux of the matter actually lies 'within'. United we stand-Divided we fall.
If the 'people' work together (and that means dismissing personalities and politics as an irrelevance) they could put things right in less than a few years. Which is why (and we start at the beginning) local councilors 'should' always put the wards and the people within FIRST, regardless of any party politics of any colour. Our ancestors did. They knew that to enhance their own standings and wealth meant carrying the people with them. It stood them in good stead - and always will.Rolling Eyes

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