Re: Politically Correct ?

UP THE DALE Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:50 pm

From Hope Not Hate, written by Nick Lowes.

"Angela Sinfield knows only too well what ‘child sex grooming’ actually means. For two years her daughter was used and abused by numerous men. She was just 12 years old when it began.

It is almost impossible to imagine what Angela and her daughter went through. Their relationship fell apart and Angela was forced to put her daughter into care in another part of the country to break the cycle of abuse. But Angela would not let the matter lie and she went on to secretly film the grooming gangs for a Channel 4 programme and campaign for the law to be strengthened.

So you can imagine her anger when she found out that the BNP were using her daughter’s story for their political ends. She had cooperated with a Channel 4 documentary – anonymously. Now she read in horror as the BNP published her name and quoted her as though she supported their political cause.

“I have never met with Mr Griffin, I have never had anything to do with the BNP and would never have anything to do with the BNP,” she told me. “They are not a political party, they are just a bunch of racists.” For Angela the grooming was never a question of race but misogyny and criminality."

Very sad. Shows how this type of thing can also split families up. She is so angry at the ones who try to stir things up for their own racist, political reasons.

cyfrifia Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:12 am

UP THE DALE wrote:I am not convinced political correctness even exists, let alone been introduced to change people's attitudes.

That's your 'lifestyle choice' UTD. Just as in the days of political correctness, young girls were not victims of child sexual exploitation, they were making 'lifestyle choices'.

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:26 pm

Me questioning the existence of political correctness is not a lifestyle choice. I question it's existence because I see no proof it really exists except in the minds of people. Even IF it exists like I have said often, there is no proof or evidence to suggest it happened in the cases of Rochdale grooming.

Idiots saying children who had been victims of child sexual exploitation, had made a lifestyle choice, had nothing to do with "political correction". It was to do with them being idiots. These type of idiots should not be coppers or involved with working with vulnerable people in anyway.

Charly Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:50 pm

UP THE DALE wrote: I question it's existence because I see no proof it really exists except in the minds of people.

Funny you should say that, thats the way I think about God

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:51 pm

Me too.

cyfrifia Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:02 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:I see no proof it really exists except in the minds of people.

Of course political correctness only exists in the minds of people. Where else would you expect to find it? You can't nip down the shop and buy a bag of it.

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:12 pm

In that way it's the same as god. It's all in people's imagination.

cyfrifia Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:31 pm

Political correctness is all about naming things. Calling the sexual exploitation of children "a lifestyle choice" is a good example of political correctness.

A 'lifestyle choice' sounds as though the child was given a choice of 'lifestyles', as if deciding which fashion outfit and accessories for her Barbie doll. Shall we have 'Surfing safari' lifestyle Barbie, or 'Princess style' Barbie, or 'Rockstar' lifestyle Barbie? No, let's go for 'Victim of sexual exploitation' lifestyle Barbie. I don't think so.

As said above, political correctness is about ideas, things that only exist in the mind, and similar to ideas about religion, may only 'exist in the mind', but have considerable effect and implications when they go wrong.

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:58 pm

No it's not, it's called being an idiot, like people who insist there is "political correctness" involved, when there is no indication that there has been any.

A agree with that. It is NOT a lifestyle choice that children end up being victims of child sex exploitation, it due to evil people who could be of any background, including family members, friends, priests, politicians indeed anyone. I for one have NEVER accepted that children could be victims of crimes like this as a "lifestyle " choice.

What's in the mind, is those that think there is any so called political correctness having anything at all to do with any of these cases, especially when the evidence shows the delays and failures to investigate properly in some cases were the fact that some idiots in the police, cps, social work depts came up with saying it was lifestyle choices being made, and most cases victims not being listened to because of their background.

Irishman Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:01 pm

Sex crimes are not political, they are not cultural they are what they are, mostly male on female and children crimes. You have to ask yourself a question here, why do people want to bring what happened too these young girls down to an (Asian gang culture) scenario when everyone knows it is an across the board crime? Is it somehow worse that an Asian male abuses a child or white male abuse on a child, so we have to pin it down to a “cultural difference”?

Child abuse is just that, child abuse; it’s beyond any one culture or race or indeed creed and should be treated so, lock them all up and throw away the key.

They got away with it so long because those that are suppose to protect children from crime like this didn’t believe the children or indeed just didn’t want to be bothered with it. Rather the same as how Jimmy Savile got away with it over such a long period of time.

Political correctness is a myth that people use to get themselves out of trouble or explain why things were not done properly.

What’s worse, the police not doing anything because they don’t want to upset a culture or they just didn’t take the children’s account seriously enough to help them? No wonder they are pushing the (Political Correctness bull)

cyfrifia Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:31 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:No it's not, it's called being an idiot, like people who insist there is "political correctness" involved,

I think you mean 'intellectually challenged'. Very Happy

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Indeed.

Glad you agree with me.

cyfrifia Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:45 pm

It' not so much that I agree with you UTD, more that I respect your right to be wrong. Cool

Charly Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:32 pm

Brilliant! Laughing

Irishman Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:56 pm

And we all respect your right to think you’re correct Cyfrifia Wink

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:46 pm

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:58 pm

cyfrifia wrote:It' not so much that I agree with you UTD, more that I respect your right to be wrong.

One thing I am not though is wrong in this post.

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:10 pm

Irishman wrote:Sex crimes are not political, they are not cultural they are what they are, mostly male on female and children crimes. You have to ask yourself a question here, why do people want to bring what happened too these young girls down to an (Asian gang culture) scenario when everyone knows it is an across the board crime? Is it somehow worse that an Asian male abuses a child or white male abuse on a child, so we have to pin it down to a “cultural difference”?

Child abuse is just that, child abuse; it’s beyond any one culture or race or indeed creed and should be treated so, lock them all up and throw away the key.

They got away with it so long because those that are suppose to protect children from crime like this didn’t believe the children or indeed just didn’t want to be bothered with it. Rather the same as how Jimmy Savile got away with it over such a long period of time.

Political correctness is a myth that people use to get themselves out of trouble or explain why things were not done properly.

What’s worse, the police not doing anything because they don’t want to upset a culture or they just didn’t take the children’s account seriously enough to help them? No wonder they are pushing the (Political Correctness bull)

Regarding the question you ask in the first paragraph, it's probably to do with the fact that they don't like British Pakistanis. Of course there's a problem regarding some men from that community, but the vast majority are not involved with such crimes. Just like there is a problem with some men from the white community being involved with such crimes, but the vast majority are not.

Spartacus Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:38 pm

I don't think anyone has ever said the vast majority of British Pakistani men are child abusers or that anyone believes that.

What is true is that some British Pakistani men have been and continue to specifically target and abuse young white girls.

Up until recently no one "in authority" was prepared to admit that this was happening despite the fact that they were constantly been informed that was the case, and evidence was presented to them which proved it. Why then was nothing done about the problem?

UP THE DALE Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:08 pm

No but some do not like British Pakistani people at all.

Yes there are some British Pakistani men who target girls, but most of them target the white girls due to them being easier to access. Muslim girls are less likely to be in a position to become victims to these monsters. I do know at least one of the ones who were jailed recently said he hated white girls, but didn't most of the jailed scum just targeted girls who were available to them? The vast majority of victims of this crime are white girls, even when the majority of sex monsters are white men. Who knows how many Muslim girls at home are being abused behind closed doors? Same in white communities there are girls being abused behind closed doors.

Absolutely,I accept that many in authority denied that there was a problem of British Muslims exploiting girls, but the social workers and police were just not listening to the poor victims because of who they were, not because of who the sex monsters were, so therefore prosecutions were not happening. There are gangs and individuals involved in the sexual exploitation of young girls who are white, often involved in the grooming of victims, and involved in drug dealing and or other criminal acts.

Spartacus Sat Nov 24, 2012 11:41 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:No but some do not like British Pakistani people at all.

Agreed.

At the same time there are plenty of British Pakistani people who do not like British people or our way of life either. I am using the term British here to identify those of us who love this country and the freedom the British way of life permits us. Who want our daughters to be as free as our sons, and not to have to be covered and locked up or afraid to express themselves freely for fear of being deemed worthless by those of a different culture.

There are all kinds of fruit but lets not ignore the rotten apples because there are rotten strawberries too. (hope that makes sense!)

UP THE DALE wrote:Yes there are some British Pakistani men who target girls, but most of them target the white girls due to them being easier to access. Muslim girls are less likely to be in a position to become victims to these monsters. I do know at least one of the ones who were jailed recently said he hated white girls, but didn't most of the jailed scum just targeted girls who were available to them? The vast majority of victims of this crime are white girls, even when the majority of sex monsters are white men. Who knows how many Muslim girls at home are being abused behind closed doors? Same in white communities there are girls being abused behind closed doors.

Absolutely,I accept that many in authority denied that there was a problem of British Muslims exploiting girls, but the social workers and police were just not listening to the poor victims because of who they were, not because of who the sex monsters were, so therefore prosecutions were not happening. There are gangs and individuals involved in the sexual exploitation of young girls who are white, often involved in the grooming of victims, and involved in drug dealing and or other criminal acts.

Agreed. However I believe there were a number of reasons why the girls were not listened to. It was not only because who the girls were but also because who the men were. I believe that if the men had been white they would have been a little less deaf!

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:28 am

Absolutely, there ARE racist people from the British Pakistani community, and at least one of the bastards jailed recently was very racist, but there are no more racists in that community than there are in other communities.

I think we have a lot of different ways of life in this country which in the main is good. If people don't like this country and they are able to, they can always leave. Obviously anyone born here can campaign to change things here. You and I do Spartacus, don't we?

There is good and bad in all communities.

More and more British Muslims are actually living in a western way, but with that some are learning bad British ways of life, like vandalism, attacking fire-fighters as was the case in Deeplish recently, and other things that going back 20 years ago did not seam to happen, so too much westernisation happening in many ways.

I too agree that I want to see our daughters as free as our sons, but lets get this right, its not just Muslim women who are treated as second class citizens, Christianity treats women as 2nd class citizens too. There is a lot of inequality within most if not all religions.

I am not convinced there was any deafness due to who the criminals were, I just think some police and social workers looked down on the poor victims. Snobbery was more likely to be a reason, on the part of some. Maybe some individual police or social workers were wary to investigate due to who the abusers were, but but I don't think that's the case. Maybe because of the number of abusers it might have been more difficult to investigate?

Looking at the Smith and Saville cases, there was definitely a situation in which the abused were not believed because of who they were and because of who the abusers were. There was this wrong belief that due to being celebrities and a politician that they could not possibly do such things-well nowadays we know celebrities, politicians, priests, family members etc etc can be and are abusers.

Charly Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:42 am

UP THE DALE wrote:More and more British Muslims are actually living in a western way, but with that some are learning bad British ways of life, like vandalism, attacking fire-fighters as was the case in Deeplish recently, and other things that going back 20 years ago did not seam to happen, so too much westernisation happening in many ways.

Now I know you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the above is the British way of life this goes on the world over, as you might see from tv news bulletins, surely you cant put all that down to the Brits! Evil or Very Mad

cyfrifia Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:45 am

Irishman wrote:And we all respect your right to think you’re correct Cyfrifia

Thankyou. I think I understand the broader context of what goes on in the north west of England, but I've stopped going into Rochdale, and when I did of recent years, was always a bit surprised to see how things were. The more the story of what has gone on unfolds, the more it becomes apparent the circumstances in Rochdale is a one-off. The background of local politics, the things that have gone on within the town and the council and so on are such a complicated and tangled web, of things being wrong and neglected in all sorts of ways, I don't think anyone who hasn't 'lived it' can properly understand it.

Spartacus Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:32 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:

I too agree that I want to see our daughters as free as our sons, but lets get this right, its not just Muslim women who are treated as second class citizens, Christianity treats women as 2nd class citizens too. There is a lot of inequality within most if not all religions.

I disagree with the inequality which goes on within the Christian Church. Load of stuff and nonsense the way they discriminate against women and gays.

However, that's not what we are talking about here. There is no need to defend the entire British Pakistani community, Up the Dale or the Muslim religion. They are not under attack. I am not the type of person who would tar everyone with the same brush, there is nothing worse.

What we are trying to discuss is the recent cases in Rochdale and the victims and abusers involved. We've agreed that abuse goes on all over the world and in every community. If we were discussing abuse within families we would not distract from the subject by saying that it also goes on in the church and vice versa. So why is it every time the Rochdale case comes up there is a need to point elsewhere?

We need to tackle all forms of abuse and different approaches are required in different situations, education is the key.

As far as I am concerned there is definitely a pattern all over the country involving the grooming and exploitation of young white girls by Pakistani men who deem them worthless yet profitable. It needs to be tackled and we need to call a spade a spade where appropriate.

UP THE DALE wrote:I am not convinced there was any deafness due to who the criminals were, I just think some police and social workers looked down on the poor victims. Snobbery was more likely to be a reason, on the part of some. Maybe some individual police or social workers were wary to investigate due to who the abusers were, but but I don't think that's the case. Maybe because of the number of abusers it might have been more difficult to investigate?

Looking at the Smith and Saville cases, there was definitely a situation in which the abused were not believed because of who they were and because of who the abusers were. There was this wrong belief that due to being celebrities and a politician that they could not possibly do such things-well nowadays we know celebrities, politicians, priests, family members etc etc can be and are abusers.

We have to disagree here. The victims were believed -- that's the point. They were believed but no one was prepared to tackle the celebrities/politicians/men involved because of the fuss it would create. It was easier to drop it then deal with it.

We must deal with it wherever it happens and in all forms. There can be no taboos. Where the abuse involves Pakistani grooming gangs then let's not be afraid to say so and address it. It's in everyone's interest to do so.

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