Why so vicious?

Atlas wrote:So you would require we double the present budget for prisons and the prison services - because that is what your comments mean? Things are done for a reason. We might not like the reasoning but the cake isn't infinite. The slices are already wafer thin in most instances. Sometimes we must compromise - for everyones sake. 

Well something needs to be done - whole point of this thread really isnt it?  I suggest using the full powers of the law to jail people for the full tariff.  Banning drink drivers/drug drivers does not mean jailing them? Just takes the muppets of the roads.  Whats wrong with full life tariffs.  Well if budgets increase - stop sending aid money to other counrys.  Such as countrys who operate space races/sending men to the moon.  Cant be that skint if they can build rockets and can send robots to Mars? We dont even have a space race industry!

Ive already suggested axing the Police Commissoner.  Can anyone tell me what he really does? What effect has he had on reducing crime personally.

So thats just for starters.  

Maybe a strong deterrent may work wonders.  Wont stop all crimes but may make people think.  A full life till you die in prison tariff may make them think.   No more letting out for good behaviour.  I mean it makes me sick when the Bulgar Killers are now free to walk the streets under new names etc at our cost. One of them got recalled for being in possession of Child Porn!!  Something very wrong somewhere .

Chill37 wrote: Something very wrong somewhere.

Crime is always with us, one way or another. The origional question, sparked by vicious and apparently motiveless violent attacks on innocent people, is, why people would be so vicious.

Applying the law, after the crime is one thing, but, unless we think it is human nature to be vicious, there must be something wrong in people's lives for them to behave so viciously. It's a problem to know what that is, but it's important to find out, or things will continue the same.

Are people angered by percieved unfairness in life, are their brains rotted with drugs, do they think it's cool or fashionable to be violent, are they the victims of abuse or violence themselves? It's no use having damaged and dangerous people wandering the streets attacking innocent women, children and the elderly without trying to identify what is wrong with them and see if something can be changed.

Well I just want to know that if the Judges have the power to iompose life traiffs of 25 years or whole life tariffs.  then why was it not applied to two child killers.  Ok people may argue they were kidss themselves in this case.  But lets look at other killers.  Such as the murderer of the head teacher who was stabbed to death at the school gates. Correct me if I am wrong but wasnt that convicted person released after a period of time.

Its not being viscious,  Just stating the blinking obvious.  As for finding out whats wrong with people.  Maybe they are pure evil in the first place,

cyfrifia wrote:

Chill37 wrote: Something very wrong somewhere.

Crime is always with us, one way or another. The origional question, sparked by vicious and apparently motiveless violent attacks on innocent people, is, why people would be so vicious.

Applying the law, after the crime is one thing, but, unless we think it is human nature to be vicious, there must be something wrong in people's lives for them to behave so viciously. It's a problem to know what that is, but it's important to find out, or things will continue the same.

Are people angered by percieved unfairness in life, are their brains rotted with drugs, do they think it's cool or fashionable to be violent, are they the victims of abuse or violence themselves? It's no use having damaged and dangerous people wandering the streets attacking innocent women, children and the elderly without trying to identify what is wrong with them and see if something can be changed.

Well speaking of dangerous people on the streets. Brings it right back to my point. Why are convicted child killers, murderers rapists let out after a short laughable sentence behind bars when Judges have the powers to impose life sentences?

So perhaps as a society we should take 'the children' somewhat better into our care. Stop allowing parents to fill their heads with rubbish or neglect them or abuse them otherwise. Because that is what some of your comments would mean. How do you do that???? Opps - I see the freedom of the individual rearing its head yet again. So that's a non-starter isn't it. Throw more money at it. Opps - another non-starter. We haven't got any or at least we need it in other areas. Doesn't seem to be a 'starter for ten anywhere in this lot does there?

Atlas wrote:So perhaps as a society we should take 'the children' somewhat better into our care. Stop allowing parents to fill their heads with rubbish or neglect them or abuse them otherwise. Because that is what some of your comments would mean. How do you do that???? Opps - I see the freedom of the individual rearing its head yet again. So that's a non-starter isn't it. Throw more money at it. Opps - another non-starter. We haven't got any or at least we need it in other areas. Doesn't seem to be a 'starter for ten anywhere in this lot does there?

Well lets start with the parents. Getting them to take charge of their offspring. Just the other days on Halloween, i saw young children walking the streets trick or treating. Or the youths hanging around drinking and making people feel uneasy. Or parents popping out children for fun and letting them run riot. So why is that a non-starter? If their darling offspring get charged and/or arrested then drag the parents in for their reasons why they let their children run feral. There is a clear difference between 'playing out' and then torching a car or vandalising a car or burning a church down for example.

As for money- already given a few simple cases for recouping cash for Policing.

Heres a radical common sense idea. We already have powers to re-coup so called profits of crime. Why not charge also the criminal convicted the costs of taking them to courts etc or Police man hours or petrol used in police chases. Its time to get really tough with the bad guys. use the full powers of the law.

Over on RO. A 15 year old boy has now been charged with the indecent assualt of a 78 year old

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/83537/boy-charged-with-indecent-assault-of-78yearold-woman

utterly disgusting

Chill37 wrote:Just the other days on Halloween, i saw young children walking the streets trick or treating.  Or the youths hanging around drinking and making people feel uneasy.

Hardly a crime to trick or treat. As for 'hanging around making people feel uneasy' sorry but that made me laugh. Is it in the same category as 'possession of an offensive wife' ?
I do take your point though that some parents don't take responsibility for their children.

Well I'm glad you find people hanging around funny.  Would you like to explain why this is so funny to my wife, daughters and their friends as to why they wont go along certian streets in Newhey due to gangs hanging around drinking cheap cider and shouting abuse to them as they have coloured hair or dress different?  yes Ive witnessed it.  I even go to the tram stop to walk back with them after their work now that it is dark, as youths do hang around the stop now. Even i feel uneasy walking past gangs.

Or, the other drinking den by the side of the steel works on Shaw Road blocking a main footpath and people avoid it like the plague.  Oh how funny by your own words.
 
Or go into Rochdale via, again , certain streets that have subways due to the beggars that appear time to time?  Yes I have reported my concerns, but nothing gets done.  Police  come along, split the gangs up.  Police go, gangs come back.    Look at Packer Spout.  Would you go and walk through with the drinkers that are there?  Now think how it is for females? Hilarious!!!!
 
Still funny Dalelad?
 
I never said trick or treating was a crime.  My point- about parents being responsible and which you have agreed, is letting very young children wander the streets trick or treating.  Baring in mind it was our streets that a sex gang roamed not to long ago.

I must say in your last post Chill you have made some very good valid points there.

Thank you.

Yes I do find young people being criticised for hanging around laughable. If people are demonised often enough they will start reacting as the stereotype because that's what is expected of them.
Hanging around isn't what you've later described though is it? Shouting abuse whilst getting drunk is more than hanging around.

There is nothing remotely 'funny' about having to negotiate your way past a gang, it is extremely intimidating!  What a sorry state of affairs Chill37 that you feel you must meet and accompany your wife/daughters back from the tram stop.

So if things are 'worse' now than a few decades ago - why? I can tell you but you may not like the answer. It's because we, as a society, have decided to remove the sanctions of fear from our children's lives. If you want to return to that period when corporal and capital punishment were the norm and inequities ruled (including whitewashing the pedophiles and degenerates) then I'm sure, given a couple of generations, the overall situation will improve to a point when walking the streets will not be as traumatic as you are at present experiencing. - - - But you don't want to do that do you?
Our enlightened society and new found freedoms in todays world dictate otherwise. You can't have it both ways. There are not the resources to provide you with sufficient protection from those who 'don't care' and are no longer 'made to care'. The sooner you accept that 'personal freedoms - in whatever guise the individual sees them, are here to stay and that you as an individual have to live with them, the better for your own personal stress levels it will be. Sorry - but ain't life a bummer!   

Dalelad wrote:Yes I do find young people being criticised for hanging around laughable. If people are demonised often enough they will start reacting as the stereotype because that's what is expected of them.
Hanging around isn't what you've later described though is it? Shouting abuse whilst getting drunk is more than hanging around.

But the abuse came from youths hanging around.
 
I started off with gangs hanging around and moved on to the extremes that have happened from youths hanging around. Examples ranged from the group at the Tram Stop and around the area off Huddersfield Road to the drinking dens at the Steelworks .
 
What do you call a number of people hanging around then? I look forward to your terms that we all should use to avoid demonising people of this type.wil your view change that when, heaven forbide and i truly hope it never happens .  you and/or someone close to you has to endure abuse and avoiding gangs becasue they are uneasy of what could happen.  Will you find it funny then?

Poppyanna555 wrote:


There is nothing remotely 'funny' about having to negotiate your way past a gang, it is extremely intimidating!  What a sorry state of affairs Chill37 that you feel you must meet and accompany your wife/daughters back from the tram stop.

Not not funny in the slightest.  Its a very sad state of affairs.  But stil be cafeful how we describe people like this in situations in case we demonise them.

Im glad to see the Council has raised the very same issues I have mentioned in this report of the minutes of the last Town Ship Meetings

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/83563/rochdale-township-committee-meeting-as-it-happened

I just hope more serious action is taken and not just talk.

Chill37 wrote:I started off with gangs hanging around and moved on to the extremes that have happened from youths hanging around.

Not initially you didn't. You said that youths hanging around was an example of something bad. Only when I said this was funny did you expand on what you really meant, which was gangs of youths shouting abuse whilst drunk. Not the same thing.

Not all groups of young people on the streets are like this. Lots are just meeting mates and haven't got anywhere to go.
Perhaps if more was done to provide affordable places for them to go, then things may improve. Currently they are seen as a problem to be dealt with by many, through no fault of their own.

Dalelad wrote:

Chill37 wrote:I started off with gangs hanging around and moved on to the extremes that have happened from youths hanging around.

Not initially you didn't. You said that youths hanging around was an example of something bad. Only when I said this was funny did you expand on what you really meant, which was gangs of youths shouting abuse whilst drunk. Not the same thing.

Not all groups of young people on the streets are like this. Lots are just meeting mates and haven't got anywhere to go.
Perhaps if more was done to provide affordable places for them to go, then things may improve. Currently they are seen as a problem to be dealt with by many, through no fault of their own.

I never said that ALL gangs were like this. I commented on the issues in my area.    Newhey just opened a skate park, as youths wanted it they got it..  That had issues when all the supplies were stolen.  Now its open very well used.  But still gangs are hanging around in the areas I've mentioned. it will attract some to use but not all.
 
I think one of the reasons for drinking for the gang by the Steel works  is that one shop owner openly sells to underage.  Yes Ive reported it- guess what nothing gets done. Funny that.
 
So all the while we have to run the gauntlet of gangs hanging around for what ever reason.

There was a shop selling to underage people on our side of town that is now shut. Took a while though. Not sure what the answer is. Perhaps those in a position to do something about it only act if a good number of folk complain?

Drink related. Nothing new there then. But unprovoked??? Were you present and where were you standing to get that photograph? Does your mother know you spend your Saturday nights perched on lamp posts?

Well bless your little cotton socks. They were cotton ones were'n't they?

Vicious attacks.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/85344/two-women-attacked-in-separate-incidents