Re: Cyril Smith: New biography

Atlas Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:43 am

At £16 plus a pop, it may prove a little too much more to spend on anything to do with the pervert. It will be interesting to see how the 'sales' go and how soon it will become available at a more realistic price for the majority to tinker with. It should sell well in Rochdale providing the council don't try to ban it from the book shelves for it's 'negativity' slants. Rolling Eyes

Hinch Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:09 am

Very strange. When I looked the other day, the paperback was only just over six quid on Amazon; less for the Kindle. Now, I can only see the full priced hardback advertised. What's going on?

Atlas Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:39 am

It is common practice for the publishers to 'only' sell hardback on primary sales if they think the work will attract sufficient sales. It is without doubt due to be followed by paperback editions for the mass market - but not until the 'cream' has been skimmed from the well -to -do. I suspect a lot of interest has been generated and the publishers have back-tracked temporarily. Don't you just love our rip-off society. Rolling Eyes

Guest Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:46 pm

Atlas wrote: Don't you just love our rip-off society.

Atlas: I find it very hard to believe that these two authors would market the book for personal financial gain and look for news in the future about the charitable beneficiaries from proceeds of sale - perhaps Barnardos Like a Star @ heaven

...

Atlas Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:49 am

The authors have no say in the matter. Their contracts allow only the publishers to dictate sales terms. Take it from me. I know.
Whether or not the authors decide to donate their profits to good cause will be their own decision. Unlikely the publishers will. Rolling Eyes

Chill37 Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:52 am

Atlas wrote:

At £16 plus a pop, it may prove a little too much more to spend on anything to do with the pervert. It will be interesting to see how the 'sales' go and how soon it will become available at a more realistic price for the majority to tinker with. It should sell well in Rochdale providing the council don't try to ban it from the book shelves for it's 'negativity' slants.

That would not surprise me to be honest, considering how Cyril was protected by others over his abuse of children. As Hinch said before there are still people to this day defending him and refuse to accept Cyril's paedophile crimes.

Hinch Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:03 am

Those doubters need to read up on Elm Lodge; one of Smith's favoured haunts when he was down in London representing the town he was so proud of. This place was part of a child trafficking ring centred on Amsterdam with other satellite houses being used to house these boys until they were moved on to Elm Lodge and other places.

Far more was on offer than the opportunity to spank the bums of a few naughty boys. FAR more including the most sordid and depraved forms of sadistic sex.

How was this place allowed to operate for so long? Its list of clientele may offer some clues. Allegedly senior politicians, members of the judiciary, royal equerries etc. Hard to imagine that Special Branch and the Security Services were not aware.

There remains much more to be uncovered and, of course, many more reasons to connive, conspire and conceal.

Worth reading up on the notorious paedophile ring 'Spartacus'.

Why not start a thread on Rochdale Future or Rochdale Past and Present FB pages Chill? I'm sure they will appreciate it.

Chill37 Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:42 pm

Maybe I should run a page on FB future. I think i would be drowning under the deluge of the 'postive' brigade who refuses to acknowledge anything is wrong in Rochdale. Where the sun shines eternally, rabbits roam free on the lawns outside Town Hall, where women can walk anywhere at any time and nothing will happen. Oh, and you can leave your keys in your car and your front door open.

But as you know Hinch, I state things as I see them and refuse to kow-tow to the all is postive brigade

Hinch Wed Feb 12, 2014 2:02 pm

Asking the occasional question is surely the worst form of negativity Chill? All you need to know is that four legs good, two legs bad. Doubleplussgood, capice? You'd have real problems in North Korea.

You will learn to love Big Brother after a few sessions in Room 101.

Prudence Tempered Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:33 am

Hinch wrote:There remains much more to be uncovered and, of course, many more reasons to connive, conspire and conceal.

Worth reading up on the notorious paedophile ring 'Spartacus' .

At the outset I want to say that I'm not doubting the main allegations, particularly those that relate to Rochdale. But the link referred to here is an absolute disgrace.

It is probably the most homophobic and anti-Semitic article I've had the misfortune to read recently. It is paranoid, incoherent and quite clearly deranged. Some of it is also factually incorrect, and in such obvious ways that it should make anybody doubt (or at least question) the rest of this drivel.

It makes several points and many allegations without, as far as I can see, a single shred of evidence. Still, I suppose it serves some people's warped agenda.

Oh, and it is written by a conspiracy theory crank.

Hinch Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:46 am

Glad it gave you so many opportunities to vent that famous spleen of yours PT.

Not sure what agendas you are referring to, but I hope that the book focuses on revealing the truth about this sick yet highly esteemed local pervert and less upon making some sort of political point, but the timing of publication, just prior to the May elections, is not an encouraging sign.

If the book is looking for those who knew about Smith's activities or even possibly colluded, I hope that both of Smith's former parties will be examined as well as any non-Political sources.

Prudence Tempered Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:18 pm

If someone starts parading blatant homophobia and racism as "worth reading" then my spleen actually demands that I vent it.

I agree that it will be a good thing if the book uncovers any criminal acts and any collusion, but if it's based on the utter garbage that you've linked to then my hopes aren't high.

Hinch Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:56 pm

Let's face it PT, members of your party have for decades, described as 'utter garbage' any allegations whatsoever about Smith's sexual misconduct, including first-person evidence and accounts from many of his actual victims. Also, your condemnation of the article by someone you describe as a 'conspiracy theorist' echoes the oft-expressed sentiments of many Lib Dems that Smith's accusers were involved in some sort of... err... conspiracy to smear this Great Man's reputation.

It would seem that some conspiracy theorists are more equal than other conspiracy theorists in your book.

No doubt you have also, in your time, been somewhat tardy in coming round to the view, let alone expressing it, that not all in Smith's reputation was as wholesome as it was made out?

Chill37 Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:12 pm

I find it sickening that there are still people out there still defending Cyril despite overwhelming evidence and victims statements that he was a Paedophile.

Mind boggling that it has happened in the past and even more so that it is continuing,

Prudence Tempered Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:50 pm

Hinch wrote:
No doubt you have also, in your time, been somewhat tardy in coming round to the view, let alone expressing it, that not all in Smith's reputation was as wholesome as it was made out?

Would you mind explaining that statement? If I had any evidence of any wrongdoing I would have no hesitation about taking it to the relevant authorities. If you have any reason to believe that I or anyone has not done so, then please report it. If not, then I suggest you decidedly but uncharacteristically shut up.

Although I would love to know why you have seen fit to post a link to a nasty racist and homophobic hatchet job from some crank.

Chill - if you mean it's me that is defending Cyril then I apologise for not making myself clear. I think there's a good deal of credible evidence that has come out about him. I hope it is all being properly investigated and that any genuine victims find some form of closure and recompense. All I meant is that the article posted by Hinch is no such thing - it is nothing short of a blunderbuss attack on a number of prominent people that are predominantly gay and/or Jewish. There is not a shred of evidence it presents and some of the 'facts' it quotes are quite plainly wrong.

That's not meant as a defence of Cyril Smith but is is of some of the people that have strayed into the sights of that crank website. I notice that Hinch makes no effort at all to back up the claims.

There are people on that list that I have absolutely no time for and whose politics I do not share but, unlike Cyril Smith, they are still alive and any allegations them need to be far more substantial than this axe-grinding filth.

Hinch Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:52 pm

For a variety of reasons, I think there are people who feel they have have much to worry about if all the facts become known Chill.

To be fair, I think that many were just too mesmerised by his personna to believe any ill of him. I know that Jeanie was a genuine admirer who was personally devastated when it became obvious that something unsavoury had gone on and she admitted it on here.

I am amazed that none of his long-time supporters never clamoured for an Inquiry during his lifetime so that his name could be cleared once and for all.

But then again...

Hinch Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:12 pm

I never said or suggested that you had any evidence PT. However, you must have been aware of many of the allegations about him. Did you ask him about them? I would have been naturally curious. I think that there was a distinct lack of questioning by those around him, blinded by the light from his halo no doubt.

I found the Website on Google. I think it was fourth or fifth from the top. Full of rubbish or course, as is Wiki, but with some nuggets of truth and, as you say, a lot of personal opinion that indicates the writer's beliefs and misconceptions. The trouble is, repeated cover ups, failed investigations and refusal to accept the bleeding obvious allows speculation like this to flourish.

As and when I choose to explain myself PT, it will be because I feel that I have not made myself clear, not because I have been badgered into it by some party apparatchik. I have however, removed the link.

Prudence Tempered Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:02 pm

Lots of people, including myself, were aware of accusations against him. I must admit that some of the more recent ones have come as a surprise - and a grim one at that. But, yes, I did ask him about them (did you?) and got an answer that wasn't entirely convincing but at least as plausible as the allegations themselves. This was even backed up by a couple of Sunday Times journalists. But my view of the charges has always been consistent, unlike those in the Labour Party who decided that the original allegations were only credible as soon as he left the party.

You see, I have also heard credible allegations made against other local (and near local) people in public life and my response has always been to say to the accuser that if they have any evidence then they have a duty to take it to the police or whoever. Tell them, don't tell me.

If you did find that website while a-Googlin' then that's even more bizarre. Firstly it makes me wonder what search term you put in there to come across it - you can find anything depending on what you look for - and if it threw up a list then why is it this piece of trash that you chose to highlight? It's not just "refusal to accept the bleeding obvious that allows 'speculation' like this to flourish" it also involves unthinking idiots to broadcast it further.

Hinch Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:13 pm

You mean unthinking idiots like you who included the link in your own post PT?

The search term I used was 'Elm Lodge. Cyril Smith' Have you something against that?

Why should I have spoken to Smith? I did not know him, was not a member of his party. I have spoken to various people closely connected to him and others connected to the Inquiry.

Prudence Tempered Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:24 pm

"I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."

'Elm Lodge. Cyril Smith' gives over 7 million hits, and yet you chose that one. At least you did a neat swerve around David Icke and went for one of the lesser known nutters.

Perhaps you can say what the 'nuggets of truth' in the article are. 'Cos we all know what nuggets are made from.

Guest Thu Feb 13, 2014 5:21 pm

Prudence Tempered wrote:
'Cos we all know what nuggets are made from.

Chicken

Atlas Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:24 am

Mojo Hill wrote:
Prudence Tempered wrote:
'Cos we all know what nuggets are made from.

Chicken

You have to be kidding me MJH! You might get a head or two and possibly the feet but as for edible, nutritious flesh - try again.

As for your 'refuse-nick' comments PT. I worked amongst many of the kids at Cambridge House in the early to mid 60's. Two of whom told me 'personally' of some of the fat man's antics. That others in positions of authority and influence 'didn't know' beggars belief. I knew Cyril personally, he was a school friend of my mother and we contracted building work for him and his brother. I to, at the time, put some of the story down to exaggeration and the 'tales' of a couple of scrotes, for it seemed inconceivable to me at the time for a multitude of reasons. How wrong can anyone be!! So 'can' the affrontary and listen to the evidence and be prepared for a lesson for the learning when 'all' the facts are eventually known. It won't be pretty that I can assure you.

Prudence Tempered Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:49 am

I haven't offered any 'refuse-nick' comments in relation to Cyril Smith.

Chill37 Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:30 am

Prudence Tempered wrote:
Hinch wrote:
No doubt you have also, in your time, been somewhat tardy in coming round to the view, let alone expressing it, that not all in Smith's reputation was as wholesome as it was made out?

Chill - if you mean it's me that is defending Cyril then I apologise for not making myself clear. I think there's a good deal of credible evidence that has come out about him. I hope it is all being properly investigated and that any genuine victims find some form of closure and recompense. All I meant is that the article posted by Hinch is no such thing - it is nothing short of a blunderbuss attack on a number of prominent people that are predominantly gay and/or Jewish. There is not a shred of evidence it presents and some of the 'facts' it quotes are quite plainly wrong.
.

No I was not inferring you at all TP as defending the paedo even after the truth came out.

Hinch Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:50 am

Smith was supported and was still being defended even after he took his last breath.

He was virtually worshipped right up to the end. Harrowing evidence from his victims was simply ignored or put down as hysterical ravings from nutters as the party faithful continued to troop round to Emma St to receive the Great Man's pearls of wisdom. (Ugh) These folk were, AT BEST, hopelessly naive and arguably continued to add to the suffering of his many victims.

They have no moral authority to represent anyone. They simply shrank from inconvenient truths in the interest of promoting their party.

Let's face it, nothing would have convinced them of Smith's guilt. They were mesmerised and this seriously affected their judgement.

Was there any collusion? No firm evidence has yet been produced but I think that given what we know about his sordid activities that took place not just in Rochdale but also in London, it is difficult to believe that nobody was aware that there were serious grounds for misgivings.

The Knowl View affair alone needs serious examination and it is impossible to believe that his activities there could have taken place without the knowledge and active collusion of others.

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