International violence and UK security.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/28/idiots-cleared-threatening-blow-up-plane

A court was unable to convict these two men who caused a terrorist alert by threatening the crew and passengers of a jet from Pakistan to Manchester, because the court found that they are idiots.

The two men emerged from court grinning like imbeciles in full knowledge that, now their legal status as idiots has been defined by the court, they can do pretty much as they like with impunity, and the taxpayer will pay for the consequences.

What will they do next?

Its highly unlikley they wil be allowed to act with impunity.

Please keep it realistic.

Taken directly from BBC North West news site (28/11/13 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-25135495)

"The jury were instructed to find the two men not guilty by the judge.

During the trial, the court heard fellow passengers had been annoyed when the PK709 flight from Lahore to Manchester was diverted to Stansted over a "trivial incident".

It had been claimed Safdar, supported by Subhani, made threats to kill crew and passengers after an argument broke out with air stewards.

Judge Charles Gratwicke described the case as "tenuous and peppered with inconsistencies".

He added: "Under the circumstances no jury can properly convict these men."


So I ask the question should this ever had been brought to trial based on the Judges on the record comments?

As the threats to kill were taken seriously by aircrew, once the pilot had radioed for help, and fighter jets scrambled to intercept, it would be difficult to brush off the incident without some charges being made, but yes, it does seem this was a waste of taxpayers money from start to finish.

We have to hope no malevolent foreign power notices this news story, or they will realise that by sending their idiot comedians to the UK, they will soon be able to destroy the British economy.

cyfrifia wrote:As the threats to kill were taken seriously by aircrew,  once the pilot had radioed for help, and fighter jets scrambled to intercept, it would be difficult to brush off the incident without some charges being made, but yes, it does seem this was a waste of taxpayers money from start to finish.

We have to hope no malevolent foreign power notices this news story, or they will realise that by sending their idiot comedians to the UK, they will soon be able to destroy the British economy.

Struggling to find a link between endangering an aircraft, as per this article, and destroying the economy. Clearly we have a mild disagreement on this matter and the context for the word 'idiot' However, clearly you are not happy with the outcome. May I suggest you contact the head of the CPS to voice your concern that these two idiots- as you call them - may go on to commit serious offences and not get any retribution.

Theresa May announced today that the UK Terrorism threat level has been raised from substantial to severe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-28986271

Very sensible given the present international situations. I am dismayed by the Russian stupidity, appalled by the Islamic obscenities, sickened by the Israeli intransigences and immune to the Africans plight (which is never ending). Their 'histories', did they but know them in proper detail, would have told them how to avoid their repeating of mistakes leading to their present ridiculous situations. As each has been 'there' before. Man never learns. Which is why he will never prevail in harmony and will ultimately be the architect of his own downfall.

Those architects seem pretty busy at the moment.

Yes indeed. We are getting better and better at destroying ourselves as every day passes. Clever aren't we.

Very clever at the technical side of mass destruction, but not everyone enjoys it.

Some of the hundreds of British jihadis gone to Syria and Iraq to fight with the Islamical Caliphate say they want to come home now. Disillusioned at not being given the beheading, torturing, executing and raping jobs they expected, but instead sent to fight people who shoot back at them, which is awful.

So, what to do with these return-ees? The government is considering sending them on anger management courses, where some group therapy, sympathy and free biscuits should turn them back into nice citizens again.

The first thing you should realise is that the age group who 'do' this sort of thing are still 'children'. Not that they would accept such a description for one second. It is however true. Primarily you are dealing with young males between the ages of 18 and 22. From 'experience' I have to tell you that it is the most dangerous and malleable time for our gender and with tragic consequence should the wrong impressions be gained. It is no accident that the governments of this world take males of that age as a priority into their armed forces for it is a 'time' when such recruits are in their most 'manageable' state and thus very easily 'molded' into their 'masters' bidding.   Yes.   Bloody tragic and sad isn't it - but nevertheless true.
Therefore I don't wholly subscribe to your, shall we say, cynical repost in your last posting on the grounds that it isn't entirely their own fault that they have been 'drawn' into the terrorists web - as they are so easily 'brainwashed' at that age.

Having experienced the realities of their situation there will be many 'wanting out'. But like our friends in Sicily - and from peer pressures such as groups of friends they will have made whilst 'out there' it is not as easy to start 'back-tracking'. Loss of face and personal abandonment for starters.

I would personally let them back in but only on the understanding that they agree to incarceration for a period of re-education similar to that undertaken after WW2 with German POW's. We called it de-nazification. It worked extremely well and many went on to stay here and eventually become good citizens and have families etc etc.

There's always a way - if you can be bothered.

There will be points of view on this, formed on what people believe to be the facts. There is much we do not know, our opinions are only that, opinion. Other wars feed into the cauldron of the middle east, Russia may feel threatened by ISIL, probably why it wants Crimea as base to defend territory between Black and Caspian seas.

It's over-optimistic to think that numbers of people with strongly motivated, deep, sincere hatred of and commitment to the murder and destruction of all people and societies except their own, including most other Muslims, trained, experienced and hardened in terrorist warfare methods, with social contacts from their time with ISIL can safely be assimilated into the UK.

As you say Atlas, there is always a way, much depends on the way chosen. Does the UK have the resources and skills to cope with islamic extremist fighters returning from a time with ISIL? Our social workers are already overworked. Can't say we have always done a brilliant job with psychological and social support for UK soldiers returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The vast majority are misguided adolescents and not yet fully understanding of the world or their own person. Some will be so warped as to probably never be re-coverable but for the rest there is always hope. We live with what we are given and what we ourselves create. There's no one else to blame.

It isn't really a question of blame, more a practical UK security matter.

People joining the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, I.S.A.L., should then be assumed to have citizenship and passports of that state, automatically cancelling their UK citizenship and passport.

Cases where people plead mental incapacity, or that they were tricked, kidnapped or co-erced into joining ISAL should be given a hearing and considered. I'm not sure that being young, late teens, early twenties, qualifies as a mental incapacity.

Sadly, the everyday operational methods of ISAL, torture, rape and extreme brutality will have a destructive effect on the minds of those carrying it out as well as the victims, returning them to the streets of the UK, however well meant would be too irresponsible.

Perhaps your view, Atlas, from the depths of the Welsh coutryside is rather different, but the public that live in towns and cities already have to live in close proximity to enough criminals and psychopaths as it is.

War in and around Iraq has never stopped since at least the Iran/ Iraq wars of the last century. The death toll is massive. Continual war builds and builds, like a nuclear reaction, sucking in more and more people, until it reaches a 'meltdown' state. Looks like Iraq has reached that point now, and the rest of the world, including us should beware of the sparks flying out from that inferno.

I'm not sure that being young, late teens, early twenties, qualifies as a mental incapacity.


Really????????

In my experience with the male population it is the most insecure time of life imaginable. A point between childhood with no caring and the responsibilities of the adult. Many quite can't grasp it and are thus 'floundering' until such times as they come to grips with it. The trouble being that at this time everything is out of balance and thus leave them vulnerable' to the machinations of others more cunning and able. I repeat - that's what makes them ideal 'soldiers'. Fit and crazy at both one and the same time. Thus - I proffer my argument that it is not impossible retrieve that age group by re-education.
However -

I don't live in a cocoon. I deal with thousands of people from all over the world every year. The fact that I chose to live away from the 'mean' streets doesn't mean to say I don't know the problems you have on a day to day basis. Being angry at your situation is understandable but does nothing to change things unless to put your anger into action. Quite how you do that, the lone voice/cry in the wilderness, is a problem in itself. Perhaps the first direction would be to fight against our so called 'care in the community' which in itself is leading to more and more horrors the longer it goes on. Quite what the alternative would be is another story.

I have to agree that the teenage to young adult years are problematic and unsteady for many. Here in the UK, that difficult and vulnerable age seems to start approximately age 13 and often goes on until about 33 years old, with so many young adults living with and dependent upon parents now. It would be difficult in law to accept those in that 20 year long age group as mentally incapacitated, but perhaps it should be considered.

Also I agree it is not impossible for the attitude of young adults who have 'gone off the rails' to change, but where that includes extremist religious convictions leading to and motivating mulptiple murders, it's rather more 'in the lap of the gods' than a tickbox matter of re-education and therapy.

And I agree many people are having to deal with anger, stress and frustration with the way the world is these days, how that can be expressed or channeled is important. For myself, I react with increased interest in nature conservation.

Our governments seem to operate in a political cocoon, isolated from the effects of their policies and legislations. My guess is that the Scotland of today would not really wish to choose independence, but feels driven to it as a practical measure, by the dysfunction of our politics and London government.

So, we seem agreeable today, and interested to see if the United Kingdom will fracture in the near future, which would put a different perspective on things. Our conversation seems to be the only entertainment available on this website recently, perhaps we should start including more jokes and witty banter? Perhaps not.

As it becomes apparent how many European citizens are fighting for IS, the problem of what to do about them if they return becomes more of a talking point and dilemma. It may be irrelevant here to a great extent, with our weak border control, those who wish to return to the UK may not particularly need to use their passports.

The supply of heavy machine guns to Kurdish fighters may help to reduce the scale of the problem.

We shall have to wait and see what the latest 'round' of decisions bring about. Whilst the world flounders around what to do, more and yet more 'states' are being drawn into the conflicts. We have the situation where IS are now being attacked by Sunnies and Shias from nations that almost hate each other. For example Saudi-Arabia and Iran who are both now being backed up by American/European air power. Not to mention the Syrian/Assad army. The enemy of my enemy - - ! How's that for an unholy alliance I ask myself? Talk about cats amongst the pigeons.    It's a funny world - if it wasn't all so sad.

The latest round of decisions has resulted in a series of airstrikes, mostly by USA forces, on the Islamic State. With UK parliament being recalled on friday, looks as though UK airforce will follow suit.

Excuse me for stating the obvious, but wonder how people will react to the UK getting involved in Iraq again. The USA by themselves have enough firepower to do the job?

We have been bombing Iraq on and off since the 1930s, and it never seems to do much good, maybe it's different this time, as it probably isn't Iraqis that are being bombed.

I would be surprised if 'targeted bombing' would make the difference needed for the Iraq Army to eradicate ISIL.
It will no doubt help towards pushing them back towards Syria - but that's all. Mosel is the key - and for that it will take 'ground troops' - - - and they are not going to be ours. The Arab Nations must themselves sort out this lot. As for us. We must provide the where-with-all and watch our backs.

The situation in Iraq and region is so complicated, many points of view and understandings within the region and internationally, difficult to know exactly what the UK should be doing.

A snag with UK bombing, is that we work in combined operations with the USA.

We should "watch our backs", and accept responsibility for the actions of UK citizens within the situation that we are told, may go on for years.

UK forces should track extremists who are UK citizens. Those committing war crimes and atrocities, should be removed from the scene as a priority, as soon as possible, those returning to the UK be known about and contained.

That may sound impractical in the fog of war, but in the long term, this sort of war is about ideas, bombing alone doesn't fix things. The UK needs to further develop intelligence and technical knowhow, already pretty good, to do the right and effective thing independently of the USA.

So, yes it's all very complicated, but a policy of eliminating our own UK citizen war criminals from the scene, even one by one over a period of years would help protect the UK and it's reputation, and importantly, 'parachute in' the idea of justice into an otherwise uncontrolled slaughterhouse.

Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are instrumental in exploiting the present situation and only 'both' can collectively sort it out. Saudi must rein in the 'Sunnis' and Iran must rein in the 'Shiites. No good can come of Islam whilst brother strikes down brother in the name of religion. The bad eggs from both must be eradicated and an accord for the future of the region laid before the Arab peoples. Peace will bring prosperity. United they will have an equitable place in the worlds politics and a greater share of the proceeds. But that may take another 100 years at the rate they are presently going. Meanwhile the rest of the world just ignores them as a 'lost cause'.
Treats them with disdain and quite frankly laughs at their ignorance. It is one thing to have a religion/belief but quite another to destroy each other for. It's the mind set of the mad-house.

"Mind set of the madhouse" or deeply held belief, whichever it is, seems to involve a lot of religiously inspired rape and beheadings. The Americans left too much money and weapons lying about in Iraq. They really should tidy up after they invade places.

Quite a lot of reaction to and comment on the Islamic State murder of Mr. Alan Henning, which must overshadow any Eid celebrations.

Comment from George Galloway. He says "The Isis murder of Alan Henning is a depraved Satanic act commited by devils in human form."

Emotive comment, but, straight to the point and accurate.

They are trying to goad the West to send in ground troops. Such will suit their aims and purpose. We shouldn't be drawn and keep supplying the arms and aid as at present. There are quite enough Arab States with sufficient firepower (if they get together) to blast this lot of vermin from the face of the earth. Allah Be Praised - maybe he will be if and when the Islamic world realise these 'creatures' are not of their faith or anyone else s  for that matter.

Mr. Galloway's description of the Islamic State extremists as " Devils in human form" offers a religious description, which will speak to those who understand human behavior in those terms.

Where the branch of Islam that is the religion of the Islamic State fits in to the larger Islamic world is a relevant question.

For the general non-Islamic public, it's probably understood as extreme, or pure Islam, as it is presented, and at the same time understood as the manifestation of extreme evil, as in Mr. Galloway's explanation.

It might be best all round if the Islamic nations surrounding Iraq took charge of the situation, and the involvement of the 'west' could be minimised.