Ethnic grooming links: The denials continue

Hinch Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:21 am

http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/does-grooming-have-ethnic-bias.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+northernvoices+(Northern+Voices)

Atlas Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:55 am

To administer a self-cure one must first admit a self-cause. That'll be the day. Rolling Eyes

cyfrifia Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:36 am

Mr. Danczuk's comment that it would be better to recognise the ethnic bias in the crime of grooming may be mainly directed towards Greater Manchester Police, and those who may influence their policy.

Police policy should be to act without ethnic bias as much as possible, but they do come under political and practical pressures. For some years they did not always investigate crimes in the Pakistani community that might have some aspect of cultural sensitivity involved, partly what gave the 'groomers' an impression they were invulnerable.

Now events have consequently unfolded and the damage is seen, it's a matter of adjusting the inevitable political pressures on the police to achieve an effective policing policy. Mr Danczuk, as a politician, makes a useful contribution to that debate.

As for Mosques recognising the issues, that is determined by religious and cultural beliefs, which divide humanity into quite separate orders of being, believers and unbelievers, male and female, each with very different rights and responsibilities. A rather different starting point for reasoning.

Guest Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:48 am

Atlas wrote:
To administer a self-cure one must first admit a self-cause. That'll be the day
.

Atlas: Some have tried, but there seems to be low patience, little time or repressed interest in considering various self-causes

As just one example:

Asian grooming: why we need to talk about sex - - Crime - UK

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

and I wonder how many will find time to read the above link and its 'open' attempt to contribute some causal factors ...

Exclamation

Hinch Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:12 pm

Why oh why does Rochdale talk about the case that came to trial in Liverpool last year as if it were its one-off, isolated case? Has the town got some strange form of collective amnesia?

Atlas Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:00 am

(Quote)

- Asian grooming: why we need to talk about sex - - Crime - UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/asian-grooming-why-we-need-to-talk-about-sex-7734712.html

A very informative and interesting appraisal of the 'facts' - everyone should at least take the time to read the article as linked for a closer more educated view of the 'groomings' etc. Well done MJ.

Hinch Mon Dec 16, 2013 5:47 pm

Yes, I read it in full. Very informative and quite witty. I wonder how it was received by the Rochdale mullah-mafia?

Guest Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:23 pm

Hinch:

English-speaking Muslim ‘clerics’ or mosque leaders rarely call themselves Mullahs. Your Mullahs are hardly likely therefore to read or listen to people like Alyas Karmani from Bradford.

He was responsible for writing a sermon condemning street grooming by gangs that went out to literally hundreds of mosques across the UK on Friday 28th June this year, in the wake of the sentencing of a paedophile ring of seven Asian men. This cross-UK sermon was an unprecedented move.

It would be telling to know if it was also read out by Imams in all of Rochdale’s mosques ..

Hinch Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:39 am

I like occasional use of alliteration Mojo. 'mullah-mafia' sounds so much better than 'iman-mafia'.

Hinch Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:52 am

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/84442/child-sexual-exploitation-serious-case-review-slams-police-and-council

Guest Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:20 am

Hinch wrote:http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/84442/child-sexual-exploitation-serious-case-review-slams-police-and-council

Will the public find time to read the reviews? The timing, immediately pre a 2-week council / Xmas-New Year closure, ' reeks ,' - as well as ...

Child Sexual Exploitation: Serious Case Reviews slams police and council - Rochdale Online

> > http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/84442/child-sexual-exploitation-serious-case-review-slams-police-and-council

Well

Hinch Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:26 am

No accident re the timing of this, or am I just being cynical?

Another key point is why this was hosted at GMP HQ rather than Riverside as one would expect, as it was the Rochdale Council Safeguarding Board's 'gig'.

I must go now and try to organise an alcoholic extravaganza down at my local beer-producing factory. I wonder if GMP or RMBC can give me a few tips?

Or perhaps not!

Hinch Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:30 pm

And yet still more!!!!

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/84448/the-government-criticises-standard-of-rochdale-abuse-report

Total bloody farce!!!!

Guest Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:09 am

A few points 'politely' summarised by a National may be of interest, ( despite the SCRs' 2 reports being described as below standards, heavily redacted, lacking sharp analysis and transparency )
I offer no apology for the length of this curtailed summary extract ... : -

Shocked

'Colour blind’ social workers couldn’t see glaring racial clues to Rochdale sex abuse

‘ An obsession with being “colour blind” left social workers and police in Rochdale unable to see glaring evidence of sexual grooming under their noses, official inquiry (SCR) finds.

A “dangerous” inability to recognise the importance of race meant social workers and police missed glaring warning signs about a gang of Pakistani men grooming white girls for sex in Rochdale, an official inquiry has concluded.

Although they carefully documented a spate of young white girls from troubled backgrounds in relationships with older men from a community they rarely otherwise mixed with, no one questioned what was going on, it said.

Had they asked why so many vulnerable white girls were striking up "friendships" with older "Asian" men, they would have been able to stop the abuse much earlier, a serious case review finds.

The report, focusing on six of the victims at the centre of one of the biggest child protection scandals of recent times, concludes that a large part of the abuse could have been predicted and prevented if basic questions had been asked.

> Police, a youth offending team and charities also failed to recognise that many of the girls suffered significant learning difficulties, or failed to recognise why this would make them more likely to fall prey to exploitative men.

The inquiry concluded that it would be “dangerous” and “simplistic” just to explain the men’s actions as a cultural trait. But it found that nevertheless that race was crucial key to the problem and that, had it been addressed as it should have, offered one of the most obvious clues.

“What is absent is any evidence that practitioners attempted to understand why the fact that the men were ‘Asian’ might in fact have been relevant and legitimate for consideration.

“There is little evidence that practitioners asked questions as to why quite well established social and racial boundaries were being crossed so frequently.

“Questions could have been legitimately asked as to whether ‘friendships’ between middle aged ‘Asian’ men and predominantly socially disadvantaged and ‘challenging’ white teenagers required further examination.

“Questions as to why these two groups who would not typically have significant social contact, had become so closely linked. Asking such questions may have led to the recognition that the girls were being targeted and groomed by the men. “The fact that agencies considered they were not influenced by the men’s race in itself raises questions for those agencies,” the report says.

cyfrifia Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:18 am

Mojo Hill wrote: from curtailed media extract
“Questions could have been legitimately asked . . . .

We have Nazir Afzal to thank that these cases ever came to court, not anyone in Rochdale itself. The grooming business in Rochdale has gone on rather more years than the public may think. A concentration of poorly supervised 'care homes', a dysfunctional council, and other matters that still need to be brought to light, provided conditions for the business of 'grooming' (organised and methodical child rape) to develop to such proportions. Numbers of people involved is difficult to estimate. This is hardly a parochial matter. Connections via takeaways and rented houses, taxi and social networks have stretched into surrounding towns and cities. Perhaps someone could draw the definite and known facts together to present something like the true picture.

Atlas Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:28 am

The only 'real' way to advance such a 'work' would be for someone to take on board the 'story' and produce the 'facts - as known' in book form for general distribution to the general public. Such a 'story' may well be of avid interest to a good publisher if the format could include personal stories from the victims and the perpetrators themselves. It would be no small feat but given the right treatment could prove to be a best seller if it could cover the whole period from the early sixties when it first began. - Ah - but who would take on such a task????

cyfrifia Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:51 am

Atlas wrote:- Ah - but who would take on such a task????

Someone who cares enough about children, and about society in general, is good at digging for, collecting, sifting, organising and distributing information, has access to free reliable legal advice, has the free time and energy, believes such an expose of the facts would serve a useful purpose, and enjoys doing otherwise thankless tasks.

Atlas Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:40 am

And where is such a 'creature' to be found. Not on this planet. I think such a 'being' would have to have a far more down-to-earth motive. Money springs to mind. One of this world's greatest 'movers'. Wink

cyfrifia Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:02 pm

Yes, Atlas, you are probably right.

18 investigations into child sexual exploitation by grooming gangs in Bradford district are ongoing, 41 arrests had been made so far.

Also, in Keithley, Rev. Dr. Jonathan Pritchard said: “We know in the New Year that a storm is coming, a very serious trial concerning grooming in our town. We know from our experience of what has happened in Rochdale, Rotherham and Oxford that when this hits the courts a media circus will come to town."
Link

We do know it does tend to be a media circus rather than a clear account of all the facts. That's the way our media works. The impression that 'grooming' connects throughout many towns is confirmed, as cases are brought to court.
Link

Hopefully various police forces will have a lot of relevant information on such networks in their files, but as we know, the Police are focused on crime, and this is a social problem concerning the general public and professionals, as well as a criminal matter.
Link

It would be useful to have more complete and better information available to the general public, but as you say, Atlas, who would collate and publish such a story? Unless it repaid as a best seller.
Link

The 'grooming' story vividly shows up faults and inadequacies in our society and information sharing systems. It's much easier for those who wish to to deny the facts if those facts are difficult to find and verify, and can be re-arranged to suit different agendas.

What we don't want is another Chief Executive Chocolate teapot like Roger Ellis, who was able to say he was completely ignorant.

Hinch Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:37 am

http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/cops-alleged-backsliding-over-sex.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+northernvoices+(Northern+Voices)

Almost finished the "Girl A" book. Good to read it in conjunction with the report to get a real sense of perspective. The more I read it the more I am convinced that the Chief Constable should go. He oversaw a regime that was not just unfit for purpose, not just failed the victims but virtually ensured that grooming would not only continue but positively thrive.

I am also convinced that it is an ongoing issue in Rochdale and other towns. I just hope that the CPS are as good as their word and prosecute a lot more of these scum. Of course, they can only prosecute those cases referred to them and I think that the police have far too much discretion as to those cases they choose to refer.

cyfrifia Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:23 pm

A sense of perspective is needed. With the population growing, changed and more complicated, attitudes and institutions will have to catch up with that.

Institutions like police, councils, education, have stagnated, with emphasis on not 'frightening the horses'. The police work within social and political limits. If we want them to effectively deal with culturally sensitive criminal networks that have established themselves, a realistic perspective is needed.

We should remember the violence and threats of violence against victims and their families, phone calls threatening to burn down houses, that general destruction of the fabric of society and people's sense of safety, the exploitation of the feeling that the police would not intervene, all involved in the so called 'grooming'.

This remains an outstandingly intolerable type of crime which has been allowed to establish itself, so pressure on police and all agencies concerned, including Islamic organisations, to eradicate 'grooming' must be correspondingly determined and relentless. You can't 'fob off' the groomers once they have their claws in, more drastic action is needed. The public equally must not be fobbed off by the authorities responsible for the safety of children.

Rochdale is not the be all and end all of 'grooming'. It's a widespread and networked crime, could be described as an industry, certainly has it's established methods of processing children, with links into drug distribution and traffiking networks. Rochdale has hit the headlines with it though, and hopefully everyone will take up the challenge of eradicating it from the town.

Guest Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:31 pm

Hinch wrote:http://northernvoicesmag.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/cops-alleged-backsliding-over-sex.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+northernvoices+(Northern+Voices)

Almost finished the "Girl A" book. Good to read it in conjunction with the report to get a real sense of perspective. The more I read it the more I am convinced that the Chief Constable should go. He oversaw a regime that was not just unfit for purpose, not just failed the victims but virtually ensured that grooming would not only continue but positively thrive.

I am also convinced that it is an ongoing issue in Rochdale and other towns. I just hope that the CPS are as good as their word and prosecute a lot more of these scum. Of course, they can only prosecute those cases referred to them and I think that the police have far too much discretion as to those cases they choose to refer.

Oh ‘ for Pete’s sake ! ‘ What would be gained solely by the police Chief Constable going, other than a political token, a PR sop and another haemorrhage of diversions? He’s got his Knighthood, with a secured historic reservoir of over 32 year’s service pensions and payouts. He should have finished his 5-year fixed-term Chief Constable contract with GMP in August, but was given a 3-year extension by GM Police Commissioner Lloyd. Journalists could easily lampoon an earlier departure by Sir Fahy. At 54 years of age, he’s perhaps indifferent either way, and could maybe join a ‘body’ of apologetic police leavers ?

The police leadership critiques surely include Ranks lower down their own food chain than the Chief Constable ? : - Assistant Chief Constable(s, Chief Superintendent(s, Commanders at Rochdale, Detective Chief Inspectors, Inspectors, Sergeants et al … those who were physically responsible and practically managing / supervising at those times.

One SCR report shows concerns had even been raised years ago about police lack of attendance at child protection meetings – in an example, with no record of police attendance or involvement in 40 child protection conferences that had taken place for just one of the victims in the review. I’d be asking who was communicated with in Rochdale police for involvement, by whom, and who should then have attended the child protection conferences, reporting to ?, etc ; not rocket science.

What downright perplexes me, currently, is why some people still suggest that the police here question local social services / other agency personnel, when their own house in Rochdale is reported to have been out of order.

At least the Rochdale MP had the wit to assess some of those flaws and the bottle to verbalise them

Hinch Sun Dec 29, 2013 8:02 am

Remember Shafilea Ahmed, the Asian girl murdered by her own parents? That case took years to come to trial following piss-poor investigations by the Cheshire Police. Chief Constable there at the time? Sir Peter Fahey who later left the force to the regret of few.

On its own, his sacking will not resolve the issues but it would be A bold start for a Police Commissioner with balls. I have no confidence in the internal inquiry to get at the truth.

The job of the police is to uphold the law. They have failed to do so repeatedly in this case. Yes, others will be culpable and many of these need to go also.

The police are far more able to work in a manner that only makes an occasional nod and wink in the the direction of political pressure than any other group. What and how they investigate and pass on to the CPS is still open to discretion to an unacceptable degree.

Despite the input from some dedicated, often junior officers, like DC Barbara Oliver, the general impression given in the SCR and in Girl A's book is one of, at best, indifference and at worst, callousness.

cyfrifia Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:08 pm

Hinch wrote:
Despite the input from some dedicated, often junior officers, like D.C. Barbara Oliver, the general impression given in the Serious Case Review, and in Girl A's book is one of, at best, indifference and at worst, callousness.[/size]

Barbara Oliver? Would that be Margaret Oliver?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21946389

Hinch Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:16 pm

Ah yes. My mistake.

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