Immigration: "No proper debate for many, many years"

We only ever fiddle whilst Rome burns because the will and the resources are never wholly put in place as the consequences for a lack of action rarely fall upon those whose duty it is to protect our security. The one's that suffer the most are almost wholly the general population going about their daily survival. During the war it was a 'national' survival. Outside of whole scale war the criteria is different. C'est la vie.

Sell-a-V indeed. French and British between them don't seem to be able to properly arrange the situation at Calais. Looks like an ongoing concorde of incompetence really.

Sort it out silver plate.

The incompetence of the French to allow the camp to set-up in the first place shows how restrictive or apathetic the local politicians are. Prevention better than cure is always the best policy as the cure can be horrendous in the extreme. My venom would be directed at those local politicians who when being informed of the problem either hoped it would go away or turned a blind eye. It's the first and foremost duty of elected officials to ensure the security of their people, not incomers, and especially not illegal incomers. - - - Having said that - the French government either having allowed incursion or promoted it should now destroy the camps, arrest the inhabitants, ensure they register as refugees and place them in protective custody for returning to the 'refugee' camps in or near their own countries. The UN programme for refugees should be accordingly expanded to accommodate those that claim to be genuine refugees and should return those that are not to their respective homelands. That is how it has always been arranged in the past and I see no reason to alter what has been a reasonably well structured arrangement. Europe cannot become the world's 'brother keeper'. It has neither the structural cultures or the capacity to be so. IF NOT - I foresee cultural war and consequently unacceptable bloodshed across the whole region.

Are the migrants at the camps there legally or illegally. If illegally, it matters not one jot whether they are bound for UK or not. They are breaking French law and should be dealt with, by France, accordingly. Simples.

The vast majority are illegals. And all are bound for Britain. And we really want that don't we! It appears some of the local politicians around Calais are at last getting angry at how things are going. Not before time - as i said previously. We shall see.

Is the situation at Calais best described as a total debacle, or a complete fiasco? It's gone on for so long and so badly organised between the French and British administrations, it makes Anglo-French co-operation look ridiculous.

In these modern day politics with available intrusion by the 'plebs' into everything that's happening we have become ruled by the P.C. brigade with the result that 'strong' politics is seen as infra-dig. Neither government can act in what might be seen as 'inhumane' way and thus nothing gets done that has any final conclusion to the problems. It's easy to say - send the bastards back home - if you don't have that responsibility and consequence. However - such understandable cowardice on the part of the authorities both here and across the water will only result in right-wing politics rising through the scum and right-wing answers in the future. The best form of defence is attack. Those in politics that try to avoid doing what is logically correct, regardless of the criticism, will eventually find themselves dumped and be responsible for even more trauma in the long run.

If UK and French governments had agreed a plan for what was obviously happening, decided who was responsible for what, made sure each other acted accordingly, sifting and processing migrants, co-operatively arresting people smugglers and other criminals involved, it need never have developed into the disaster area fiasco/debacle it is.

There may be a change of attitude emerging. UK Immigration Minister, Mr. Robert Goodwill confirms 100% that work is about to start on a great wall to protect the southern border. It will be constructed of beautiful smooth concrete to make it difficult to scale.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/06/uk-immigration-minister-confirms-work-will-begin-on-big-new-wall-in-calais

Has Mr. Goodwill been listening to Donald Trump?

"Are you ready? We will build a great wall along the southern border. And Mexico will pay for the wall.  100%.  They don't know it yet, but they're gonna pay for the wall. And they're great leaders, and great people, but they're going to pay for the wall. On day one, we will begin working, on an impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful southern border wall."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKIoqBYQzvc

Walls! Which idiot doesn't know about 'walls'. Which lunatic would build ghettos? Walls wall people out as well as in. Walls don't work. Ask Berlin. Ask Gaza. Ask the Pics. Ask the Briganties. Ask anybody with half a brain. Walls and people don't mix. Fools - the lot of them.

Not all immigrants are that keen on the UK. We have put some of them in prison just to keep them here.

Things didn't work out for this chap, what with the housing shortage and all. He had his passport and one way ticket back to Latvia ready to go when he was arrested. All he wanted was to go home and he wouldn't be coming back.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/latvian-man-court-outburst-jailed-12159630#rlabs=3%20rt$sitewide%20p$11

Yes. What a shame the other man's grass is rarely greener. Believe the crap, pay the piper. I know of dozens who left these shores for Oz and Canada in the 60's and came scooting back less than 2 years later. You have to be prepared to work (at anything) and get down and dirty to succeed anywhere. El Dorado - now there the hills are topped with gold.

With our prison system criminally overstretched, wouldn't it make sense to deport some of the foreign criminals that qualify for deportation that we are holding?

As for the Latvian geezer, why couldn't he do his six weeks in prison in Latvia? He had the ticket home, and it would probably work out better for him.

Our prison system is a mess, it's in no-ones interest for it to get worse.

Yes to both questions you posed. However - under EU legislation we first have to ensure that the person will not receive bad treatment or be executed to wherever he is being deported. Latvian prisons and many others are far worse than ours. By that time and with all the ensuing bureaucracy attached they will have probably served most of the sentence. It's politics and governments - not society and logical.

What happened to free movement of peoples? The chap had his ticket to Latvia and his passport ready to go. Is everyone from the E.U. that commits a crime in the UK imprisoned here? Sounds a good way to collect as many criminals as possible, like a lobster trap, once a criminal arrives here, they can't get out.

It's quite normal for someone who commits a crime in a country to be arrested, tried and imprisoned by and in that country? Freedom of movement doesn't apply if you have an arrest warrant out on you. Unless of course you are fleet-of-foot and can evade in time your pursuers.

The idea of the EU was for that group of countries to co-operate closely, not behave as ordinary independent nations.

The idea of an EU is a nonsense when controlled by the elites for the benefit of the elites as as transpired over the past 40 years. Co-Operative democracy is in itself a flawed concept in that from the outside it appears beneficial to all but from inside it produces constant stagnation as the participants refuse to agree to either disagree or agree. I've been there in a much smaller organisation and I can assure you it doesn't work within one nation let alone 28. It therefore has to be controlled by an elite who take no cognisance of the rest in order that it may work at all - and that is closer to dictatorship than democracy. The main reason I personally am a Brexit. The concept of independent nations, ruled and controlled from within their respective borders, has a far better chance for future developments in that the 'competitive' nature resides in all and pushes the evolution of each that much further and faster in order for each to 'keep up' with the neighbour.

It's not rocket science and it never was. Centuries have proven it. The trick is to do it without resorting to fisticuffs. And therein lies the dark person in the wood-pile -!!!!!

On the agenda at the moment is the state of our prisons, it's very bad.  Prisoner numbers desperately need to be reduced. Removing those who can and should legally be deported to their countries of origin, especially those like the Latvian chap, who want to go, would seem to be fair, humane and, in the circumstances, essential.

The answer is to stop putting people in them. - - - Gosh. Shock. Horror -.

Everyone seems to think that a prison is something along the lines of 'Porridge' when in actuality it is something completely different. The biggest trouble with today's prisons are the 'screws'. Privatisation made it a business - and all in business must play a part - including the warders. By far more illegal stuff enters via the 'screws' than by any other method. In part they do it to keep the buggers quiet, that is until it all 'kicks off' which happens on a regular basis. I think the prisons decide amongst themselves who's riot it is this week!!!
Only the most violent should be in prisons. The mental cases psychiatric prison wards. At least half prisoners are in the latter category. I would seriously consider 'penal battalions' for the young with carrot and stick attachments - getting these little buggers to stay out of prison is the best way of getting numbers down - and it could be done. I would give it as much priority as the NHS - prevention is always better than cure - or catching it early makes an easier recovery.

But to do that you have to 'care'. Now politicians and caring - - - - .

Dame Louise Casey, the 'Integration Tsar' has a few things to say based on the results of statistical quizzes and surveys of immigrants.

Much of it seems to be about Muslims, who believe in conspiracy theories, and their perception of the UK where they live.

Apparently many are under the impression that the UK is a majority Muslim population, this being because where they live, that's what they see.

Conspiracy theories may or may not be true-ish. Apparently, we now live in a post-truth media environment.

One of the biggest culprits is social media. Taken that you are correct in that many who live in high immigration areas perceive that the whole population is thus structured are also most likely to be involved in daily intakes of media via their laptops or mobile phones and are most likely to join and stay with social groups that are of similar opinions to their own. In this manner they are not getting an over-all view of our society or any alternative opinions and explanations as to the 'realities' that exist. - -- Ergo - set opinions based upon lies or inexactitudes. Today's and tomorrow's greatest problem and one that will have to be overcome to avoid the breakdown of law and order in the future.

Having an 'Integration Tsar' is a bit comical, no real effort was ever made to integrate immigrant societies. Still, it has created a job for someone to state the obvious.

The open door, multi-cultural policy of the Labour party, caused it's vote to collapse in England, and changed the political landscape considerably. Scotland is a different kettle of fishes.

With immigration into the UK running now at it's highest ever level presently, the landscape, political, social and, as we see it, is likely to carry on changing.

Yes, social media accelerates the tendency for self-referential, self-reinforcing 'bubbles'. The way it's structured causes opinions and interpretations of events to go round in circles. For example, groups of people sharing videos of the opening ceremony of the Gotthard railway tunnel believe that a demonic force is at work in the politics of the E.U.

Of course this is silly, as anyone with an interest in world culture and theatre will recognise this elaborate opening ceremony is based on random colourful multi-cultural events, e.g. Voodoo from west africa, ritual from Tibet, mixed up and misinterpreted into a meaningless and tedious post-modern theatrical fiasco. Just because it features masked and horned ju-ju figures dominating and controlling groups of zombified workers does not mean it's anything to worry about.

And therein lies the global problem which will in time promote its own discourse and violence.

Those left behind in the world's populations to score for themselves a better life and those kept in misery for the benefits of the few will inevitably grasp for anything which has more promise. But promises are just that and are rarely kept without costs - usually for those that grasp.

Where are we all going with all this -? To hell in a hand-basket. As my brother once said - And the meek shall -. What he meant was they, the meek and the weak, will by sheer weight of numbers rain down upon the richer populations as food and water and shelter become unattainable in their respective areas and that no amount of bloodshed will stay the tsunami of human flesh battering and ultimately breaking through the defensive walls of the rest of us.

10 billion may well be the tipping point. I won't be here. Thank God.

Having watched a bit more of the video of the opening ceremony for the Gotthard tunnel, I feel a bit queasy. It is diabolical theatre and appears to be a ceremony intended to unleash powers of evil deep into the tunnel at centre of europe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW5gklIKcDg
With theatrical productions like that, no wonder the Russians are wary what Europe gets up to.
So that's how it works, bizarre ideas like that go round in social media circles, re-inforcing themselves.
It may, as you say, all result in ten billion people in a tsunami of human flesh battering and ultimately breaking through the defensive walls, but, probably nothing to worry about.

It's a good idea. No doubt it would house a quarter of a million refugees from the elements when the time comes. As man strives for better things he inadvertently lays the foundations for his own demise. Ignore the starving masses and the inadequately satisfied others and as sure as night follows day it will come to destroy you - eventually. Trickle-down needs to become a 'course in spate' if the future is to hold any chance for our species. It's not rocket science and I haven't the slightest doubt the powers that be know all this - but it won't be today's problem so what the hell.