Town Hall's Future use ?

Hamid, as far as I am concerned a nation like Britain has a right to hold dear and maintain it's traditions and customs just as 'your' people do.

I could say more but will leave it at that  

Which traditions and customs are these Mrs Poppyanna? Enslavement? Child Labour? Colonisation?  Illegal wars? The killing of men in custody by your armed forces? Foodbanks? Drug addiction? Alcoholism? Please tell me more and we will enter into discussions.

A fine tradition of fishing springs to mind.

Hamid wrote:
Which traditions and customs are these Mrs Poppyanna? Enslavement? Child Labour? Colonisation?  Illegal wars? The killing of men in custody by your armed forces? Foodbanks? Drug addiction? Alcoholism? Please tell me more and we will enter into discussions.

 

I have made a suggestions that would have very few costs associated with it and would have the support of many people in the town. The trouble is, it doesn't fit in with the cloth cap and tripe and cowheel definition of what Poppyanna describes as her customs and traditions.

It would seem that the lack of imagination and a pathetic clinging to your past will continue to hold the town back. So talk of your long dead textile industry with dreams of Cottonopolis and dig up you medieval bridges by all means. The future beckons but Rochdale is only comfortable with the long dead and gone. Let's face it, you've all given up on any hope of the future.

Hamid, you raise some valid points. This town does have a problem with looking backwards rather than forwards but that does not invalidate the desire to preserve the significant and the noteworthy. As said, I have no particular objection to the mosque concept other than I feel that such a concept would generate widespread controversy and increase tension.

You are right when you suggest, in your provocative manner, that the profits from the textile industry were shared by the few rather than the many and the erection of the town hall happened at a time when people were starving and infant mortality was at Third World levels.


However, it remains a great building. It needs to be preserved. As a museum, it will not attract great numbers nor will it secure its future. Whatever happens to it has to have a relevance that will see it being used on an ongoing basis. This implies some sort of commercial use and probably being multi-functional.

Does that mean my Monty Python idea isn’t suitable?  Okay let’s try again.  Learning from our history let’s create an equality centre to embrace all that the 21st century can offer us.  The centre will be a cooperative where all are treated equally and all the old fashioned ideas, before the enlightenment that is, are rightfully condemned to the dustbin of time.

A place where all are given hope to contribute to our Towns future and innovation rules.

In a spirit of epistemology I will point out a few draw backs but as a nation of doers these could easily be over come.

Equality means all, yes women as well, will be treated with respect and held as contributors to the future.


Earlier in this thread I suggested that some local politicians ‘misrepresent’ the electorate and I stick by this.


When the promised consultation is upon us I hope that some form of statistical transparency is built in, to the extent of being overseen by independent observers.

I too applaud the postal voting system.  Although there has been some criticism, usually by the losers, surely it is a good thing that people are prepared to go out and encourage people to participate in the democratic process and even assist them to fill in the forms where help is needed as well as collect the forms and deliver them?

As for separate entrances for those who choose to wear traditional dress. Why not? It is helping to let people make individual choices in their lives. It is a non-issue.

Hamid wrote:I too applaud the postal voting system.  Although there has been some criticism, usually by the losers, surely it is a good thing that people are prepared to go out and encourage people to participate in the democratic process and even assist them to fill in the forms where help is needed as well as collect the forms and deliver them?

As for separate entrances for those who choose to wear traditional dress. Why not? It is helping to let people make individual choices in their lives. It is a non-issue.

I would agree with your point regarding postal voting ... If I could be convinced that the postal votes were being completed by the people they were issued to, not husbands, uncles or community/party elders.

I could even be convinced in the benefits of using the Town Hall as a mosque - if the Civic Christmas Carol Service were to be held in rotation at mosques, as well as churches, with provision made for modestly dressed individuals of both genders to sit together in the Christian tradition...

However, since neither of these propositions seems likely, then I cannot support the other issues.

The postal voting is about two very different socio-political traditions, and how they remain separate and don't mesh.

Anything representing the history of Rochdale, the town hall, established traditions, or the British flag reveals anger in Hamid. He raises valid historical criticisms, but of things that are in no way a British monopoly, the problems described are found all around the world. Perhaps we are too complacent about some things, such as the postal voting mentioned, today's more multi cultural and globalized society is not the old fashioned Britain, and needs much stronger systems of scrutiny, responsibility and policing.

This is a complicated country with a complicated history, which can be presented in a negative way by those who do not thoroughly understand it, or are motivated to present it in a negative way. There is a price to be paid for the British traditions of tolerance and fairness, allowing hostile views and actions to have sometimes too much free expression, example in the tragic case of Lee Rigby, where the murderers should have been locked up before they killed.

If the town hall was converted to a mosque, Hamid's, and perhaps others, attitude towards the building apparently might not be one of positive and co-operative blending of cultures and traditions, but rather one of invasive take-over.

Whatever use is made of the old town hall, it should serve the people of Rochdale and serve their interests. The mosque idea looks like a road to division, and does not suit that purpose. Something balanced is needed, preferably with as wide a public access to the building as possible.

Giving some thought to Hamid's criticism of all things British, there is an issue, and things that need attention. So many of our systems now are not fit for purpose. As an example, the Red Arrows are symbol of a British tradition. A pilot was killed recently when the ejector seat went off when it shouldn't.

"Testing of the Mk.10 Martin-Baker seat showed that the safety pin could be inserted even when the seat was in this unsafe position, giving the impression the seat was safe."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-25943211

The Red Arrows were a reassuring symbol of British skill, engineering and tradition, but things have been allowed to lapse, to the point where the mechanism simply became a definite death trap.

Similar with so many of the other systems that we depend on, everything from housing, land management, political scrutiny systems, border control, just about everything might look and sound ok if you don't know too much about it, but when it comes to the nitty-gritty and your life depends on it, the inadequate and dysfunctional reality of the situation becomes apparent.   

I think you misunderstand or maybe I have not made myself plain. Britain has been good to me. In turn, I have been good to it. My business has provided wealth, created jobs and I pay all my taxes in full and on time. I am not angry. Far from it. I am not a British citizen but that does not mean that I reject this country. 

Britain's reputation for tolerance and fair play is however a self-description and not to be trusted universally. Many other countries, including your former protectorates and colonies see it in a different light and remembering times when your relationship was exploitative and driven only by self-interest.

As for the free expression you allow, looking at the thread on councillor Ahmed, this seems not to extend to your own famous 'free' press.

Hamid wrote:I think you misunderstand or maybe I have not made myself plain.

Maybe, I have no idea of how you feel apart from what you have said on this thread, Hamid.

You say you are a long time resident of Britain who rejects the British flag as "not my flag" you refer to it as "the butchers apron", and to the traditions and customs of Britain as enslavement, child labour, colonisation, illegal wars, drug addiction and alcoholism.

You sound a tad angry against Britain, but, maybe that's just a superficial impression. This thread about uses for the town hall has wandered a bit, but maybe that's because it is a difficult and complicated problem that will raise a lot of issues about the dynamics and future of the town, and will require a thoughtful and practical plan.

No, I said that the Irish used to describe the flag as the butchers apron. I was seeking to convey, perhaps clumsily, that not all see things in a way that can be taken for granted and universally held.

North Korea describes itself as a model of freedom and democracy as does America. Are these assumptions valid? If not why not and how valid is Britain's often quoted view of itself as being the home of tolerance, free speech and fair play? You choose to see yourselves in this way, others may not.

Britain was once slave traders to the world and it's epicentre was a mere fifty miles away. That is historical fact. Child prostitution is alive and well on your streets and in your land of free speech, none of these victims were listened to.

I am not religious and do not attend mosque but I believe that the suggestion made to use all or part of the Town Hall as a centre of worship was worthy of discussion. The other alternatives being put forward seem to be either facetious or unimaginative.

Your use of the word "No" is a bit unconvincing there, Hamid. Your rejection of the British flag and way of life, customs and traditions is fairly clear, and you give some reasons, which bear thinking about.

Yes, Britain was, for a time, a major player in a slave trade. Closer study shows a rather more complex picture. The fact that the British were so anti-slavery and so involved in abolishing it is a reason why the British connection is well known. Britain was a major player in putting an end to the international Atlantic slave trade.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml

The British will always do the right thing, but, not until all other avenues have been thoroughly explored.

cyfrifia wrote:Your use of the word "No" is a bit unconvincing there, Hamid. Your rejection of the British flag and way of life, customs and traditions is fairly clear, and you give some reasons, which bear thinking about.

Yes, Britain was, for a time, a major player in a slave trade. Closer study shows a rather more complex picture. The fact that the British were so anti-slavery and so involved in abolishing it is a reason why the British connection is well known. Britain was a major player in putting an end to the international Atlantic slave trade.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/abolition/royal_navy_article_01.shtml

The British will always do the right thing, but, not until all other avenues have been thoroughly explored.

I have rejected nothing. I have very clearly said that I am not British. Why then should I try to claim your flag? I am merely telling you the truth based on reality.

Neither do I reject the British way of life. I am merely questioning the strength, depth and breadth of some of the values that are often trotted out although, in reality, these values tend to be almost wholly aspirational in nature.

The British continued to make big money out of slavery long after they claimed to have abolished it and bought its by-products in the form of cheap cotton, tobacco, coffee, sugar, rum etc right until the USA finally abolished it. You can't abolish slavery whilst slipping the profits of its free labour into your back pocket.

Was it a primary school you taught at Cyfrifia? Your arguments seem to be almost totally devoid of any intellectual rigour.

Examination of a few basic texts by EP Thompson, Eric Hosbawm or perhaps Floud & McClusky might be a good place to start. You don't need to be a slave-owner to profit handsomely from the trade. It is likely that some of the Town Hall was built on the trade in cheap cotton.

Well, Hamid, the one thing you do seem to want to, and are able to, make clear is that you are not British, and that's something you are very happy about. Your suggestion to make the town hall into a mosque was worth a thought, but not a good idea really.

I am happy to remain a citizen of my own country. I am neither happy or unhappy about being a UK citizen. It quite simply isn't a factor. I work hard, pay tax, provide jobs, give to various charities and have never claimed benefits apart from a few weeks unemployment in the early 90s.

I'm sorry this is insufficient for your tests Cyfrifia. I could have lied I suppose and pretended to be a British Muslim but I suspect that even that would still leave me firmly in the `outsider' caste. One of my employees, a British Asian was getting some stick from colleagues about being what they called 'a Paki'. He wasn't and unknown to them had served in the army for five years including service in Iraq. Perhaps he too will be an outsider for the rest of his life?

I was interested in your comments re the Red Arrows. I saw them about 2-3 years ago at Southport. The Hawk trainer they fly is 40 years old this year! High time they got an upgraded aircraft.

Sorry Hamid, I don't offer an online testing service.   

I presume that with a name like Mojo that you are a member of some voodoo or devil-worshipping cult so it is no surprise that you oppose the expansion of organised religion.    Most of the new mosques are eyesores and out of keeping with their surroundings.   You describe them as 'beautiful'.     I certainly don't.

I don't think that there are any commercially viable uses for this building.   Expensive to operate, heat and maintain with impossible restrictions on making any sort of adaptations.     It was designed for a specific purpose in very different times and is now, at best, a white elephant.    It will no doubt limp along for another century or so as a home for various community groups and occasional poorly attended concerts , tea dances for the near-senile and organ recitals etc but commercially viable it has never been and never will be.,

So Mr Mojo - or Baron Samedi if you prefer, you criticise those making suggestions, what are your own? Occult worship, tarot cards readings, crystal-gazing, a colonic irrigation facility perhaps or a home for spiritualism or televised ghost hunts?