Britain leaving the E.U.

The European project, with free movement of peoples between member countries is a grand idea. The more successful it is, the more people and families move hundreds of miles from 'home', leaving extended family and things they know, chasing where the economy is doing the best, to live in unfamiliar societies; meaning lives of disconnect and strangeness for so many people, for a generation or two, before it could start to settle to be a 'New Europe'. It may be a good idea in theory, but it's a bit difficult to distinguish it, or it's effects, from a refugee crisis.

Atlas wrote:Time I was asked 'DO I WANT TO BE GOVERNED FROM SOMEWHERE IN INNER BELGIUM BY A BUNCH OF GRABBING PARASITES '?

Somehow I think you'll have a problem trying to get that referendum question past the Electoral Commission.

Why would that be TP? Do you think it was a tad 'strong' in its structure perhaps?

Hey up! Watch out! Cameroon's coming out with another jem to placate his rankled followers!! What's it going to be this time? Everybody change to the 'Pound' and dump the 'Euro' then we can all go ass over tit. Just how stupid do this lot think we all are???

Atlas wrote:Why would that be TP? Do you think it was a tad 'strong' in its structure perhaps?

Maybe I'm being a little picky but there is just a hint in there that the answer you're seeking is "No".

Ye gads and little fishes TP. I am undone -!

I'm only happy there aren't any DT's involved - I really will have to stop making the wine - deary me!

Yes Charly I probably am. It's late nights and a demanding spouse, Well that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Seems he's getting to know who his friends are Hinch going off tonight's drubbing. The problem we all have here is - who is telling the truth? Or have both sides (the Yay's and the Nay's) both got too much to lose by being straight? Or -does nobody really know the outcome of such a 'move'?

How an informed public could ever possibly be realised given the depth of 'interests' each side has in the matter makes this question of a referendum and possible 'good' outcome one of the most difficult I have come across in my lifetime. It's a conundrum mixed up in an enigma and wrapped around within a chaos culture.
What ever happened to 'straight talking'?

My, how time flies, and is the talking any 'straighter'?

The UK still seems to be shuffling indecicively towards the exit of the E.U., or the E.U. seems to think so, now suddenly deciding to fine us 1.7 billion pounds. Some sort of exit fee perhaps?

This arrangement of being told what we can and can't do, and paying a fortune for the privilige is wearing a bit thin.

I can understand the problems of leaving the E.U., we have been in it so long, we have probably lost the will to exist as an independent nation by now,  it would cause a lot of disruption.

There it is, it was a mistake to join the common market, we never really took to it, but we are stuck with it now, unless the swivel eyed closet racist looney toons fruitcake ukippers get elected.

The fine I gather is for having something of an economic recovery. Not worth bothering really, is it?

Is this something to do with Mr.Cameron pledging millions more for ebola, and ticking off the rest of europe for not donating so much? Ikea has contributed 5 million, perhaps we should ditch europe and team up with Ikea.

After the election now, a referendum on leaving the E.U. is on the horizon, and many would like to see it brought forward for practical reasons. However, first we have the 're-negotiations'. Such re-negotiations could go on for years, they usually do.

Meanwhile, the situation for Europe is changing, are re-negotiations a practical idea, or, will they always be overtaken by events?

I suspect the re-negotiations will to some extent be window dressing. The Tory Party are split on the subject - both coming from quite reasonable positions. The promise of a vote whilst cynically part of the political process to thwart UKIP aspirations is a good tac to take considering the amount of frustration the public feel over the subject. I doubt when the time comes that many will have disseminated the reasonings for giving a Yes or No vote sufficiently to come to a logical decision on the matter. Meanwhile the uncertainty whilst possibly holding up some investments have the result in keeping our European partners alive to the possibility of 'break-up' or alternatively demands from other nations for a 'say' in matters or even possible national changes to suit their own requirements. It may suit the powers that be in the European Parliament to maintain the status-quo, keep the masses in limbo, so to speak, whilst they get on with their own Federal agendas. Being anti-Federalist (as I am) the forthcoming 'scrap' satisfies me personally and thus i am looking forward to the Tories keeping their promise.

The UK is not really a part of europe, it has a big effect on europe though, now and then. Could be that our membership of the european project got it off to a good start, but the time for our contribution is over, maybe. A continuing trade relationship would be good for everyone, but the political project of ever closer union sort of squeezes out the UK, unless we really do want to permanently pack in being British and become euro-beings.

Looks like re-negotiations have got off to a quick start, as it's reported 'Brussels forces UK to accept mediterranean migrants.'

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article4436745.ece

Under the present legislation we have no choice. That's why we need to remove ourselves from the project or re-negotiate along with other partners a 'change' in the legislation. That's democracy.

Apparently the UK, along with other countries of the EU does have some semblance of a legal opt-out from recieving a quota of the asylum seeking migrants from Italy, but it probably does amount to a delay rather than a legal right to refuse entry. The intent of the ever closer union of the EU is to 'blend' all the countries of europe into one substance, to share every thing and every circumstance. A fairly barking idea, but that's the intent. We have signed up to almost every aspect of that apart from the euro, all very well if you think that's the right thing to do, but it's a bit extreme.

Federalism was always an extreme form of democracy - but would be better than isolationism or separatism whereby the end result becomes friction and war. I proffer the USA as an example which after 200 years still hasn't got it right. Federalism is a half-way house which in my opinion doesn't satisfy anyone but does help eradicate war.

Going alone. Or leaving the club, for me has no fears. I can remember when such was very much the case and although we had an anomaly at that time i.e. the end of the war, austerity gone mad and a country to partially rebuild, we managed admirably and followed the austerity period with a period of massive change and boom. The question for me is as follows - do we have in this country the expertise we would require to compete with the rest of the world? Do we have the people who have the knowledge to understand that R&D is the bedrock of profitable returns and ascendancy over the competition? if the answer to those questions is yes - then we can leave the club tomorrow without having to worry. If the answer is  - perhaps not or no then I would advise we leave things alone and try and negotiate for less 'government' from both London or Brussels.

When a referendum finally does happen, quite likely the Scottish vote will tip the balance to stay in. There are more practical advantages now for Scotland and Wales to stay in the E.U. than there are for England.

Only as long as Scotland and Wales are classed as deprived regions. If the Scottish economy leaps forward under this latest hand-out and bribery (sorry - Autonomy) she will eventually lose her ERDF status and funding. Wales - no point in making the point - she will never be anything else but deprived regardless of what is done. Same goes for Northern Ireland.

But it is all academic. We won't be leaving the EU. There was never the intention of doing so from the outset. It's simply to keep the disgruntled happy and detract from the real problems. Politically sound and a neat Tory policy.

Leaving the E.U. may or may not be on the cards, probably not, but a re-negotiation and re-think seems to be on the agenda.

The Greek government seem to have the knack of negotiating with the E.U., perhaps there are some 'lessons to be learned' about negotiation techniques there.

There are. Make sure your debts are so colossal in order that your creditor cannot let you go to the wall. In other words borrow as much as you can and steal the rest. Simples really.

The EU cannot 'afford' to let the Greeks go if they wish to contain the EU and hope to prosper in the long term. I know it. They know. We all know it. Ergo they will make a deal which won't suit anyone and will lead to further complications along the line. Only if the Greeks make it absolutely impossible will the EU tell them to go their own way - and the Greeks won't do that. They have always known on which side their bread is buttered. It's a game people. Just play up and enjoy the shenanigans whilst they last.

Strategy has to be adapted to the circumstances. The UK couldn't really go as broke as Greece, just to gain a negotiating advantage. We could wake up to the fact that it's a game of hardball so to speak and stop being so mimsy about sticking to the rules, real or imagined.

We could stay in and refuse to play by the rules until they change them. We could create mayhem if we so chose to do so. The problem I have is do I want to be part of a Federated Europe (Super State) which I might add was Hitler's objective which I know is coming at some time over the next twenty years. With me personally it doesn't matter. It isn't going to affect me at all. But I worry that the rest of the population of the UK (those it will affect) are not aware or in many cases 'care' enough to make a rational decision come the referendum. Some will take the view that we can rescind our membership as and when such an impasse arises. Maybe that's the way to go -. Say - Oh to hell with it then opt out at some later date to suit ourselves. On the other hand we could go our own way this time and in years to come when this country has proven its worth to itself and the rest go back in with much more clout than Germany or any other federated state. Like I said - it's all a game and he with the most nounce will win whatever we decide to do now.

The whole point of europe was that it was an amalgum of different countries that added up to something. Melting them all down to make one big superstate is like throwing a couple of dozen different kinds of fish into a pot to make a fish stew, it's probably going to taste pretty strange and no-one will like it. Unless by some strange co-incidence it turns out tasty, but, it's a long shot.

I know a little something about 'clubs' and 'memberships' and as is always the case it begins by the willing working as a team then expands taking on everything and everybody. It is then that the whole enterprise begins to go to pot because many are not team players and others don't like the rules and want to change things. Nothing new there then.

I have seen whole enterprises topple and fail because of expansions that have not suited the initial intended purposes. We shall see - in time.

It looks a bit more probable now that the UK will leave the EU when the referendum happens.