Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  johnb on Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:48 pm

A similar case now in Oxford. Same racial overtones, same actions, same delay. This one comes to trial (in London) in January. Perhaps the racial element might eventually be taken on board?
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  cyfrifia on Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:43 am

Of course nobody wishes to mention what race, religious, cultural or immigration status aspects are common to these gangs, but, it would be very useful and relevant for a report to consider how much avoidance of that range of issues has contributed to the failure of various people and authorities to act over so many years.

It is also important, from a police perspective, to look beyond individual cases and to investigate the networks by which children are moved between gangs from town to town and city to city, the connections with drug distribution and other crime networks.

Because this organised grooming and abuse of children has been allowed to go on relatively unchallenged for so long, these now well established patterns of criminality and networks associated with them will not disappear with a series of prosecutions.

A suitably robust, serious, thorough and wide ranging investigation is needed, to form the basis of a long term police campaign to attack and remove this unspeakable criminal activity. To make a start in dealing with the unspeakable, it must be spoken of.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Poppyanna555 on Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:37 pm

Very well said! The act of 'not talking about it' has resulted in an escalation of these terrible crimes and we have only reached the tip of the iceberg. We now need to be more open and pro-active in stamping out this culture of abuse which unfortunately, has been allowed to go unchecked for far too long.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Guest on Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:01 pm

johnb wrote:A similar case now in Oxford. Same racial overtones, same actions, same delay. This one comes to trial (in London) in January. Perhaps the racial element might eventually be taken on board?



So long as Keith Vaz continues the chair the powerful Home Affairs Select Committee, I doubt it johnb.

His own stance has been loudly consistent since May and a brow-beating of different views has already been a running element.



Meanwhile, back in Rochdale, Pastor Rigg's comments set an unpleasant picture:
]http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/73794/political-correctness-blamed-for-sex-grooming-scandal


Last edited by Mojo Hill on Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : failed URL insert)

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Hinch on Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:11 pm

Do lessons really get learned? Have all the other high-profile inquiries ever really changed anything? Maybe I'm just being cynical but these things do tend to crop up again and again; albeit not on the scale of the Rochdale case.

I was in Staffordshire over the weekend talking to my Muslim friend who is a consultant oral surgeon. She is a highly educated woman from the middle class and says that it really does stem from how white girls are often viewed within muslim society as somehow being 'less than' Muslim women and morally inferior.

How will an SCR change these perceptions? It is all very well changing the way in which these cases are reported and dealt with by the police, education, healthcare professionals, council and social services but if my friend is correct, it goes much deeper than that and she said that it is very difficult to speak about these issues, let alone raise them within many Muslim communities.

Now I am not a Muslim so I don't know how well-informed my friend is but we did hear some very similar opinions and experiences being voiced by younger Muslim men and women on the old RO forums.

By all means, let the SCR take its course and toss a few well-rolled severed heads in the direction of the baying crowd but it seems to me, that to really get down to the roots of the issue, we really do need to be prepared to go much, much deeper into this. Simply regarding it as a 'sytems failure' and changing the training and paperwork and perhaps a few alterations to the educational curriculum will not get to the heart of the matter.

Lest we forget what attitudes we are talking about here, let me remind you of the Manchester Evening News report on the trial:

The evil predator who led the Rochdale child sex grooming gang can be named today as Shabir Ahmed.

The 59-year-old from Oldham can be exposed after a judge in another case today lifted a ban on the media identifying him.

Ahmed, a father-of-four, raped an under-age girl above a Heywood takeaway where he worked as a delivery driver before sharing her among his friends so they could also sexually abuse her.

He encouraged his victims in the Rochdale grooming case to call him 'daddy'.

The Pakistan-born former taxi driver claimed the girls gave him the name because he would scold them if they behaved badly in the takeaway.

Locked up in June '12

He was one of nine men convicted at Liverpool Crown Court in May over the sexual grooming of vulnerable girls in Rochdale between 2008 and 2010.

He raped one under-age girl twice and 'aided and abetted' in a third rape by another takeaway worker, Kabeer Hassan.

Ahmed also had a year-long sexual relationship with another young teenager girl, although the girl herself regarded him as a father figure and still insists he did nothing wrong.

Ahmed behaved outrageously during the Liverpool trial, removing his t-shirt and ripping out clumps of his own chest hair in front of the judge in a bizarre bid to demonstrate he would have left damning follicles of his own hair at the scene of his crimes.

'You preyed on girls because they were not part of your community or religion', says judge as he jails Rochdale sex gang for 77 years

Grooming victim: ‘I felt scared and told him I wanted to go home’

He also repeatedly accused the judge, the jury, and the police of being part of a racist conspiracy against Muslims.

All the defendants were Asian and all the five young victims who gave evidence during the trial were white.

"It's all white lies," he said.

But it can now be revealed he repeatedly raped an Asian girl over many years.

The ban on identifying Ahmed was lifted today after another jury at Manchester Crown found Ahmed guilty of yet more sex crimes - this time the repeated rape over a number of years of the Asian girl.

In the latest case, he was convicted of 30 counts of rape against the girl from a very young age over many years.

The jury was not told of his involvement in the Rochdale child sex grooming scandal until Ahmed went into the witness box and revealed all as part of his bid to persuade them he was the victim of a conspiracy against the Muslim community.

He was jailed for 19 years at Liverpool Crown Court in May after a jury convicted him of three counts of rape against one girl, sex assault of another girl, trafficking within the UK and conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with a child.

The jury in Manchester had been told of the rape and sex assault convictions but not of the other charges and how he was central to the Rochdale case.

The jury in the latest case dismissed his defence in finding him guilty of 30 counts of rape. Ahmed, formerly of Winsor Road, had denied all charges, claiming the victim had either made her story up or imagined it.

He smiled as the verdicts were read out.

Judge Mushtaq Khokhar lifted the ban on identifying Ahmed and told him:”As you know you have been convicted of serious offences. The court does require further information in your case before proceeding to sentence.”

He adhourned the sentencing until August 2 for the preparation of reports. He dismisssed an application by Ahmed's barrister for immediate sentencing.

The victim in the latest case had gone to the police about the abuse but initially decided not to prosecute the case.

It was only when police arrested Ahmed over the Rochdale scandal that they went back to the victim and she gave full details of the systematic sexual abuse she suffered at his hands.

She told how he continued to rape her even as she sobbed - exactly what he did when he raped a girl of 15 as part of the Rochdale grooming case.

During four hours of police interviews, the girl, who cannot be named for legal reasons, went into graphic detail about the abuse.

She believes she became pregnant after one of the rapes but had a miscarriage.

During one of many rants during the latest trial, he said: "We are a civilised society. We are the supreme race, not these white b******s (pointing to police officers in court)."

He continued: "You will not get a CBE. You will not get an MBE. You will get a DM, a destroyer of Muslims. You were born one thousand years too late. You f***ed my community.. You destroyed my community and our children. None of us did that. White people trained those girls to be so much advanced in sex. They were coming without hesitation to Rochdale,Oldham, Bradford, Leeds and Nelson and wherever."

He said the jury in Liverpool has been 'taking instructions' from BNP leader Nick Griffin and later pointed to Rachel Smith, who prosecuted both cases on behalf of the Crown, saying: "I curse you at night. I curse you and your family. You will understand (pointing at Judge Khokhar). I curse the juries. I curse the media and most of you b******s. Your family will get it. You have destroyed our community... Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, Maggie Thatcher. They are all the same. They're all on the take. They (looking at the police) are on the take. It's true. They are all bent b******s. It has to be taken by average people like you and I. They take all the money and we take all the weight. These (pointing at the police officers) were p****d on by Theresa May. May you be more p****d on."
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  UP THE DALE on Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:49 pm

If that evil bas**rd believes that about this country I trust he will be going back to Pakistan when he is let out of prison. Hopefully though he will die before then.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Charly on Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:06 pm

Some of them do think that UTD, I've heard it said (from an asian lady) that we are now the minority in this country and that they have taken it off us.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  UP THE DALE on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:39 pm

I know SOME do, and they are completely wrong and delusional. Muslims will NEVER be the majority in this country and they are still only a small minority in Rochdale. The majority do not want an Islamic state, many left, or their parents etc left Pakistan because they wanted a better life which included getting away from a Islamic state. So don't worry Charly you are not going to be forced into learning the Koran. Smile

I have Muslim friends who do not share the beliefs of that monster, and think that women should be treated as equals. You have some Christians who think women are second class citizens.

The best hope in this country is that more and more people now class themselves as no religion, after all it's some religious teachings that say women are 2nd class citizens.














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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Charly on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:48 pm

UP THE DALE wrote: So don't worry Charly you are not going to be forced into learning the Koran. Smile


Very Happy I'm not worried about it UTD, bit old to learn anything now, the information goes in one ear and out t'other.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  UP THE DALE on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:56 pm

Me too. Mind you I am not really a fan of fairy tales etc, that's why I don't read religious books. Smile

How about being forced to wear a burka? Smile
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Charly on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:06 pm

Not a cat in hells chance! affraid
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  UP THE DALE on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:08 pm

Laughing
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:22 pm

You might re-think when you see the gas bill. A nice cosy burkha might be just the thing for the winter.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Charly on Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:30 pm

Nah, havent you seen those cosies they sell now?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adult-snuggle-wrap-blanket-sleeves/dp/B002SQDLUK rendeer
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  cyfrifia on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:15 pm

No burkah for you then Charly. Smile

After our little detour, back to the heart of the matter.

hinch wrote:Do lessons really get learned? Have all the other high-profile inquiries ever really changed anything? Maybe I'm just being cynical but these things do tend to crop up again and again; albeit not on the scale of the Rochdale case.

I was in Staffordshire over the weekend talking to my Muslim friend who is a consultant oral surgeon. She is a highly educated woman from the middle class and says that it really does stem from how white girls are often viewed within muslim society as somehow being 'less than' Muslim women and morally inferior.

How will an SCR change these perceptions? It is all very well changing the way in which these cases are reported and dealt with by the police, education, healthcare professionals, council and social services but if my friend is correct, it goes much deeper than that and she said that it is very difficult to speak about these issues, let alone raise them within many Muslim communities.

Now I am not a Muslim so I don't know how well-informed my friend is but we did hear some very similar opinions and experiences being voiced by younger Muslim men and women on the old RO forums.

By all means, let the SCR take its course and toss a few well-rolled severed heads in the direction of the baying crowd but it seems to me, that to really get down to the roots of the issue, we really do need to be prepared to go much, much deeper into this. Simply regarding it as a 'sytems failure' and changing the training and paperwork and perhaps a few alterations to the educational curriculum will not get to the heart of the matter. . . .

And more.

It may well be, a Serious Case Review will not go deeply into the roots of the matter, that the issues are still too hot to handle for any formal or political process that is likely to happen. We can at least draw our own conclusions and think our own thoughts, that is still legal isn't it?

As for treating this as a 'systems failure', yes that does seem superficial, but if we are going to live in a society with the problems we are suffering, at the very least, society is going to need some rather more robust 'systems' in order to cope.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Hinch on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:32 pm

No problem with tightening up systems or putting new ones in but they need to recognise the full extent of the problem first.

If the underlying issues are seen as 'too hot to handle' then it is a very safe bet that any 'systems' put in place will not prevent it occuring again in the first place and might only affect the way it is dealt with.

They need to prevent it happening, not come up with better ways of dealing with it after it occurs.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  teamplayer2 on Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:44 pm

Agreed Hinch but should never have got this far in the first place if the authorities acted sooner.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Hinch on Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:16 am

You mean that if the council had acted sooner, it would have prevented these Muslim 'men' regarding these girls as pure trash?

Have to admit, I never thought of that; a system so good it can reach deep into communities and address 'thought-crime'.

If you are waiting for a system that comes up with something that makes all Muslim men regard western-women as equal and therefore beyond exploitation and violent sexual attack then you are shooting at the moon.

But, unless you accept and recognise this basic truth, there is a very likely chance of it happening again.

I think the whole way in which we operate between and within communities needs to be looked at and some VERY serious restructuring to take place.

Remember, all the powers that be on all sides falling over each other to deny any racial/cultural link? That sort of knee-jerk crap needs to go. Fifty years after mass immigration began and community relations are so lacking in confidence and maturity that Commandment Number One still seems to be:- Thou shalt refuse to see the wood for the trees in the Great Spirit of community cohesion.

By all means change the training, the time shedules, the paperwork, the reporting channels and all the other stuff. OK, we know that there will also be a change of a job title or two and a scraping sound as the deck chairs are moved around on the Titanic. But, would any of this have prevented what happened here?

No, it would have helped them to recognise it earlier but what REALLY needs to be done is a fundamental way of changing the thinking and the way in which women are regarded within and between communities.



Last edited by hinch on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:41 am; edited 4 times in total
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Spartacus on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:24 am

hinch wrote:You mean that if the council had acted sooner, it would have prevented these Muslim 'men' regarding these girls as pure trash?

Have to admit, I never thought of that; a system so good it can reach deep into communities and address 'thought-crime'.

If you are waiting for a sy7stem that comes up with something that makes all mulim men regard western-women as equal and therefore beyond exploitation and violent sexual attack then you are shooting at the moon.

But, unless you accept and recognise this basic truth, there is a very likely chance of it happening again.

I thing the whole way in which we operate between and within communities needs to be looked at and some VERY serious restructuring to take place.

Remember, all the powers that be on all sides falling over each other to deny any racial/cultural link? That sort of knee-jerk crap needs to go. Fifty years after mass immigration began and community relations are so lacking in confidence3 and maturity that Commandment Number One still seems to be:- Thou shalt refuse to see the wood for the trees in the Great Spirit of community cohesion.

By all means change the training, the time shedules, the paperwork, the reporting channels and all the other stuff. OK, we know that there will also be a change of a job title or two and a scraping sound as the deck chairs are moved around on the Titanic. But, would any of this have prevented what happened here?

No, it would have helped them to recognise it earlier but what REALLY needs to be done is a fundamental way of changing the thinking and the way in which women are regarded within and between communities.


Spot on! Well said.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Hinch on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:55 am

Thanks Sparks. I have seen so many inquiries and reviews over the years. Some name changes on the doors, A few new job-titles, training and awareness-raising sessions, some new liaison committees formed and a token sacking here and there. Perhaps the odd 'early retirement on health grounds' but no fundamental changes and many 'difficult' or 'sensitive' areas avoided in the finest Nelsonian traditions of raising the telescope to the wonky eye.

Scope for the appointment of a few 'Mr Khans' perhaps?

Some of it is happening already perhaps. A new 'Building Stronger Communities' cabinet post. A positive statement of intent perhaps though probably much too early to tell.

To paraphrase Herman Goering - when I hear the term 'community cohesion' I reach for my gun. We have been waiting 50 years - and counting, for the 'glue' to set.
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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:12 am

What strikes me as sad about this is that it reminds me of the Hillsborough investigation. The way our legal system works is that when a group of concerned family, relatives and freinds are prepared to follow through a legal process for many years and through many obstacles, they may eventually get justice.

What about the family freinds and relatives of the girls that were abused in these grooming cases, without them, what pressure can there be behind an investigation?

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  teamplayer2 on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:36 pm

Sparks and Hinch I was going on about when it was first reported by one of the victims back to about about 2006 to the Police and Social Services, if I got the year correct.

Good points you made and no system is fool proof. What I refer to the very first time it was reported by the victim and nothing done then.

If it was anything to do with being seen to be PC or not being seen to be racist that is the biggest scandal. The criminals being allowed to carry on when it was first reported. The other scandal for the people in charge who it was reported not acting on the accusations when first reported.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  cyfrifia on Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:45 pm

The national media are ripping into Rochdale, although other towns have similar problems.

From the Guardian 27 September

Drugging, trafficking and rape, the worst happened in Rochdale all right. The dreadful twist on the typical story of a harrowing crime is that this one was allowed to keep on happening. If the authorities had lacked any clue about the grooming of vulnerable girls, which eventually led to nine convictions this year, that would be one thing. But as the report from the council's safeguarding children board effectively concedes, the warnings were there. As far back as 2007, an official working group identified 50 youngsters at risk of exploitation. Yet such was the guilty men's sense of impunity that, when victims lashed out, causing damage to a taxi and a takeaway, they twice reported them to the police. So what on Earth went wrong?

The change of policy that is needed, is simply to change from allowing asian men to rape white girls, to preventing asian men from raping white girls. Once that is established, systems and everything else will fall into place rather better.

The previous policy of designating grooming and rape as a 'lifestyle of choice' in the interests of community cohesion has failed and proved counter-productive.

A new policy of deliberately preventing and avoiding this from happening would be much better for Rochdale and for everyone concerned. Things don't have to be everlastingly cr@p in Rochdale, positive changes can be made without even a lot of expense, it's just a matter of having the will to do it.

Rochdale should be quite clear about this from now on, and move from being seen as a most disgusting, degenerate and failed town, to being recognised as a leader in the field of solving this and other problems, having the guts to take the steps needed to create a better society for the future.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Spartacus on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:56 pm

I think we also need to stop using the blanket term "Asian" when referring to these cases.

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Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Post  Charly on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:30 pm

What term do you suggest Sparky?
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