Going down the pan (Nile Pan?) again

Spot on Taz! How many more times are the Fire Service going to be seen to focus on the needs of our Asian communities above all others? I know of two occasions in recent years where the service visited homes in Central Rochdale giving out free deep fat fryers the first time and the following time, free smoke alarms as well as offering their expert advise. You are correct in your comments about ESOL courses too, but in most instances they have to be paid for.

I know of two local families where the wives do not speak English Shaza, despite the fact that both have lived in this country for well over 30 years. The daughter of one of them explained that her mother had never been allowed to learn the language as her father believes that it is suffice that he can speak English.

Community Cohesion and assimilation can never fully succeed with this sort of mindset.

It is difficult to believe that a woman could possibly live in Britain for over thirty years and not pick up basic English language. A matter of choice not to speak it perhaps, but she probably understands what is said.

Indeed Taz, if only these ladies could be allowed a voice, but methinks this will be a long time coming

If these ladies want to learn English, to live in England, wouldn't it legally be a form of domestic violence or abuse for another family member to prevent or forbid them?

I am aware that one of these ladies was hospitalised for some time and was unable to communicate with the staff at all, causing her much distress. Of course, there may be those who have picked up some of the language, but are too subservient to speak it, as Taz said.....it reeks!

It's one thing living in Britain temporarily and not picking up English language, but another to be here permanently without enough English to ask for help and medical treatment. If women choose not to learn, that's their choice, but if they are prevented from learning English by intimidation of some kind, that more or less amounts to a form of false imprisonment, certainly puts them in a difficult position with a loss of rights as a citizen.

It may well be Cyfrifia, but do you really believe that anyone in authority would be willing to address this issue? I personally doubt it, PC correctness and all that.

Probably not in the Rochdale area, Poppy. Rochdale seems to be too bogged down with problems and lack of spark.

It depends how bad and widespread a problem it is now and may become. It may be nothing to do with it locally, but in theory, leaves a gap wide open for people smugglers to exploit, if nothing is done to check on the well being of women, particularly from rural non-English speaking areas coming into the UK being kept by their 'minders' from learning English, so there may be some interest at national level.

I agree though, with all the other problems going on, it may not be near the top of the list.

The fees for an interpreter are extortionate Charly, but that's another story!

Millions being spent on translation services for the NHS is a counter-productive waste of resources.

It's treating the symptom, the lack of English language, rather than attempting a cure, that people in England should learn to understand English. Trying to run a 'Tower of Babel' society is ridiculous.

cyfrifia wrote:If these ladies want to learn English, to live in England, wouldn't it legally be a form of domestic violence or abuse for another family member to prevent or forbid them?

Cyfrifia: That's a significant question, after questioning if the women have choice or even knowledge of opportunities.

When women do not speak English they face significantly more barriers to accessing support services. They therefore end up being made even more vulnerable.

They can’t just phone the police and talk, or pick up a phone book and search for places that will help them. They rely on family violence perpectives and cultures in which men are traditionally the most powerful members.

Violence in the home can often transcend their own traditional understandings of what constitutes domestic violence. Social isolation, strict confinement and emotional deprivation are but a few instances. Mental health issues can be insidious.


Some support workers believe that domestic abuse by denying them “Community Voices” stems from a legacy of patriarchy and sexism that can be widespread in many South Asian communities.


As a result, women are socialized to believe and accept that violence in a relationship is acceptable, that male power expressed abusively is part of the cultural milieu, and therefore abusers are not held accountable for their behaviour in their own communities.


Also, many such women continue to believe that they are worthless, and that revealing the situation to anyone can be a cause of great shame to their families and communities.


The cost of translators has now led to a situation where non-English speaking women are being denied accommodation at least in London Refuges, many of which have lost finance and their experienced providers under today's climate.

A 'symbolic' number of English-speaking women serve to divert some public attention from a situation of continuing unseen deprivation.

These are the mothers of the 1 in 4 primary school children in the borough for whom English is not their first language, with Urdu and Punjabi being the next highest first languages. Can these women ever help with school homework, mix with others or understand what their teenage children are even talking about ... No.

Seems to be another example of how immigrants and immigrant communities do need ongoing support. The costs of immigration are underestimated. The argument that our economy 'needs' immigrant workers doesn't seem properly thought through. Support services in so many complicated and specialist areas really need to be provided for immigrants and the communities that absorb them, or, you end up with a lower quality of life for everyone, and what is the point of that?

Extortionate?

So what is the correct rate for the work and what would YOU charge?

I take it that your last comment was aimed at me JohnB? As I am not an Interpreter I have no idea.....why, are you? but if YOU believe that the 23 million spent by the NHS alone last year is acceptable, then you are entitled to your own opinion, as I am mine.

If the people who can't understand English were to learn it, they could get jobs as interpreters, but, then we wouldn't need them.

in my work I find it necessary to use translation services (in Modern European Languages) with regularity. They are expensive because they have to be right - being near enough is not good enough.

I would suggest that when someone's health or liberty is at stake the same is true - so translators need paying for.

Of course it would be better if people learnt English, but what level of English is going to be necessary. There is a language barrier in some areas with the understanding of native English speakers. Don't be quick to knock professionals who's work you cannot emulate - they earn their money.

i'd agree that translators are required for 'life and limb' and highly-specialised vocabulary.

Many native English speakers also struggle with technical jargon, criminal terminology etc.

The thread to my mind didn't relate to these circs, or to this country's economic needs for immigrant workers.


A basic skill level of English can be enough to develop understanding and use of choices in social-family situations for many women who remain isolated, dependant and "at risk" without it. That's my take on an English language bit.

Mojo Hill wrote:
The thread to my mind didn't relate to these circs, or to this country's economic needs for immigrant workers.

Perhaps it does relate directly though, circumstances now, women who may still be isolated, potentially 'at risk' in family situations, with lack of English, has it's roots in how import of workers and families, often many years ago, wasn't managed or supported very well.