Re: Going down the pan (Nile Pan?) again

Guest Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:18 pm

cyfrifia wrote:
Mojo Hill wrote:
The thread to my mind didn't relate to these circs, or to this country's economic needs for immigrant workers.

Perhaps it does relate directly though, circumstances now, women who may still be isolated, potentially 'at risk' in family situations, with lack of English, has it's roots in how import of workers and families, often many years ago, wasn't managed or supported very well.

You write cyfrifia you are an occasional visitor into Rochdale from the outer fringes; needs everywhere for all people here were different many years ago.

Giant population changes; heaps of Regeneration policies have been in operation for a lot of years in Rochdale

• People have written on here of women, OK then

A high percentage of these without English are South Asian women immigrants who come here as wives. Exports and in migrations for marriages remain weighty; assorted relatives also encouraged ‘from back home’ to extend families, same for study and visitor visas.

South Asian Muslim women’s economic activity is disproportionately low, particularly within the Pakistani, Kashmiri and Bangladeshi communities.

Of these women the ‘hardest-to-reach’ are those who were not born in the UK, have limited education and qualifications, and who have had limited experience of any location or mainstream society because they remain primarily in the home without English communication skills

Assumptions about Muslim women not being able or willing to work are particularly pervasive and are in need of addressing. Muslim women have a key role to play in challenging restrictive gender roles within their own communities.

Community leaders speaking for masses without their consent or understanding have become local ritual; politically convenient and favoured by establishments.

cyfrifia Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:32 pm

Would it help to have a 'Year of Muslim Women' where everyone just ignored everything Muslim men say and listened only to Muslim women? Might help to balance things up a bit.

Shaza Mon Oct 22, 2012 4:58 pm

cyfrifia wrote:Would it help to have a 'Year of Muslim Women' where everyone just ignored everything Muslim men say and listened only to Muslim women? Might help to balance things up a bit.

I am thinking this is the flippant post.

How could you even get to the girls and women to listen and which languages would you speak? You want to hear about the kitchen sinks?

cyfrifia Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:11 pm

A year is enough to make a difference to attitudes, longer would be better. If you think all Muslim women will have to say will be about kitchen sinks, that could be boring. Perhaps they think about other things while they are doing the washing up? A slight edge of flippancy perhaps, but a serious thought about encouraging and listening to female Muslim voices, and maybe breaking the monopoly of 'community leaders'.

Hinch Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:18 pm

I know lots of Muslim women; none of them the downtrodden domestic semi-slaves that some would imagine.

Was talking to one three weeks ago; a dentist and millionairess in her own right. I have worked alongside doctors, therapists, scientists, cooks, cleaners who were all Muslim women.

There are many, many different sorts of Muslim women from across all the cultural, economic and educational spectrums. They are not all burka-wearing 'semi-ghosts'.

Guest Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:36 pm

Precisely Hinch

and Rochdale needs to ensure this is reflected local in our diverse large Muslim population.

cyfrifia Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:37 pm

Shaza has a point. There are Muslim women who do have a voice. But there are those it would be hard to reach. Trying to work out how to give a voice to those , and to disrupt the monopoly of male Muslim community leaders who have a disproportionate say with the authorities and funding bodies.

teamplayer2 Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:00 pm

The only thing I remember being at a Police meeting many years ago. I proposed a lady from the Muslim community to stand for a Police Community Group in Rochdale and I am sure she would have been very good on the panel.

The thing I remember was the males from the area concerned by the looks they were giving were very hostile towards the idea and the lady concerned seemed to be put off. Also some hostile looks towards me of the idea I proposed. Even then I thought they were out of touch with the 20th century in the UK and thought we had moved on from the middle ages.

I just hope in the 21st century that the same men have moved on with their views since. If ever I came up with such a proposal again that their views have changed with modern times.

Guest Mon Oct 22, 2012 10:49 pm

cyfrifia wrote: Trying to work out how to give a voice to those , and to disrupt the monopoly of male Muslim community leaders who have a disproportionate say with the authorities and funding bodies.

Cyfrifia: That seemed to be a rather tortuous journey, but your comments above are spot on.

It becomes more disconcerting to realise that the women's voice option can often be increasingly seen, and often encouraged, as adopting-exhibiting ultra-conservatism as identity. Sad

teamplayer2 Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:10 pm

It dose seem in some cultures that the males need to wake up and times are changing. After all it is 2012 and not 1912!!!!!

cyfrifia Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:30 pm

Mojo Hill wrote:
cyfrifia wrote: Trying to work out how to give a voice to those , and to disrupt the monopoly of male Muslim community leaders who have a disproportionate say with the authorities and funding bodies.

Cyfrifia: That seemed to be a rather tortuous journey, but your comments above are spot on.

It becomes more disconcerting to realise that the women's voice option can often be increasingly seen, and often encouraged, as adopting-exhibiting ultra-conservatism as identity.

It was a bit of a wander about, but yes, I agree my comment is spot on.
Speaking of wandering words, what does "adopting-exhibiting ultra-conservatism as identity." mean?

Atlas Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:12 am

teamplayer2 wrote:It dose seem in some cultures that the males need to wake up and times are changing. After all it is 2012 and not 1912!!!!!

Ye gads!! Now you tell me. I wondered what had happened to the gas lamps down yon ginnel?

But don't you think that there are still many countries in the world that have yet to enter the 20th century let alone the 21st? The western hemisphere has (for the last 500 years) been far further advanced in its emancipation than the rest and it cannot be unexpected that other cultures wishing to live here do not have the same respects for our way of life. That one would expect that when one is in Rome one should do as the Romans do isn't on the agenda of those you would question. It is we who should be changing our ancient life style to meet their archaic requirements - -! Does anyone see anything wrong with that appraisal -?

cyfrifia Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:12 pm

Atlas wrote: It cannot be unexpected that other cultures wishing to live here do not have the same respects for our way of life.

It doesn't seem to have been expected or anticipated. Either that, or those in government who have been responsible for forming immigration policies over many years never saw any particular value in our way of life, or "ancient lifestyle" as you put it.

Guest Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:39 pm

It's not just immigration policies, as we meet "requirements" by lots of fringe activities and special considerations
.

Local NICOP card facilitation last weekend is a small but relevant example ...

NADRA holds surgery in Castlemere Community Centre
Date published: 22 October 2012

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/74459/nadra-holds-surgery-in-castlemere-community-centre

On Saturday (20 October) National Database and Registration Authority (NADRA) staff held a surgery in Castlemere Community Centre, Tweedale Street in which they dealt with 77 applications for the is National Identity Card for Overseas Pakistanis (NICOP) cards.

Ghulam Rasul Shahzad OBE, Chairman, Action for Pakistan, International, and Castlemere Community Centre have expressed their gratitude to the NADRA Team for their continued support and caring about the members of the Pakistani and Kashmiri communities and saving their time.

Taz's opener set me off looking at other recent provisions. The Muslim Religious circumcisions arranged at our council grant-funded Deeplish Community Centre, to save Muslim parents travelling times going to hospitals or clinics, was just one surprise I wasn't aware of, but then again I didn't make their AGM where this service was promoted by a green gowned medic of some ilk

Did you wear clogs Atlas? Smile

Atlas Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:16 am

Yes from 1948 to 1955. My books tell the full story but as you know I am not allowed to advertise them as that would be unfair on others - where would it end. Hinch advertising his karaoke act etc etc etc??? Wink

Charly Thu Oct 25, 2012 9:47 am

I'll give Mojo the low down on the books Atlas, I'll say to be careful though as my kids were ready to ring for the men in white coats, thought I was hysterical over something when in fact it was through reading one of your books, I couldn't tell them what was wrong..I was laughing too much!
Had the same problem one time reading a Terry Pratchett book in bed, laughing out loud so much my kids came in my room to see who I had in there!
Plus I dont think there is the same rule on this site about mentioning a book or two Question

Charly Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:57 am

Mojo Hill wrote: It's not just immigration policies, as we meet "requirements" by lots of fringe activities and special considerations
.
Taz's opener set me off looking at other recent provisions. The Muslim Religious circumcisions arranged at our council grant-funded Deeplish Community Centre, to save Muslim parents travelling times going to hospitals or clinics, was just one surprise I wasn't aware of, but then again I didn't make their AGM where this service was promoted by a green gowned medic of some ilk

I didn't realise surgery was carried out in community centres ..whatever next?
And WHY cant muslim parents travel to hospitals like other parents have to?

Dalelad Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:51 am

They can, they just don't have to Charly! I suppose doing the pointless operation in the community centre helps stop the hospitals being even more clogged up.

Charly Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:18 pm

And would the surroundings be sterile enough to do surgery?
Or is it just a chop chop...next!

Dalelad Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:32 pm

Who knows?!

One day it may be possible that this mutilation of infants is banned, as there is no physical need for it, only a perceived command from an unseen being.

Admin Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:23 pm

Atlas wrote:Yes from 1948 to 1955. My books tell the full story but as you know I am not allowed to advertise them as that would be unfair on others - where would it end. Hinch advertising his karaoke act etc etc etc???

Atlas, this is not Rochdale Online. You are perfectly free to shout out from the rooftops about your books. In fact, I will give you your starter for ten. I have read the first one, '"Ower Darkling" which I found very funny with great nostalgic self-confession and very evocative descriptions of times past and available via Amazon.

Am quite happy at the forum being used to showcase local talent as long as it's not of the log-book loan variety.

Atlas writes under that fine own Rochdale name of Atlas d'Four.

Trevor Hoyle is another fine Rochdale writer and grew up in the same area as Atlas. His book of the area is called 'Down the Figure 7'. Very good read.

This forum more than happy to showcase local writers, musicians, actors, ~~piss~~-artists etc.

If it's do do with the Borough of Rochdale and its worth talking about, it will certainly find a home on here.

UP THE DALE Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Another fine Rochdale writer is Mark Hodkinson, who I went to school with. He has wrote for several newspapers as well, usually about football. He is a Dale
fan, and wrote books about the Dale. Here is a link to a site that has some books available from Trevor Hoyle and Mark Hodkinson. My favourite Trevor hoyle book was "Rule the night" another Dale related book.

http://www.pomonauk.com/shop/store.php

Shaza Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:22 pm

Dalelad wrote:Who knows?!

One day it may be possible that this mutilation of infants is banned, as there is no physical need for it, only a perceived command from an unseen being.

I was reading there was going to be a crime law to stop doing it in Germany before they said it can stay because it is for religion I tried to find out more becuase of religion and there this is on the internet

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: "The Prophet Ibrahim circumcised himself when he was eighty years old and he circumcised himself with an axe." Islamic Jurists say that circumcision is obligatory. If it were not obligatory, then the Prophet Ibrahim (peace be upon him) would not have troubled himself at such a later stage of his life. It is a symbol of submission to God's will.

Ibrahim is in the holy Bible as well so can someone tell me why it is not religious for all Christians as well.

Guest Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:47 pm

Old Testament not new.

Atlas Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:23 am

Shaza wrote:
Dalelad wrote:Who knows?!

One day it may be possible that this mutilation of infants is banned, as there is no physical need for it, only a perceived command from an unseen being.

Ibrahim is in the holy Bible as well so can someone tell me why it is not religious for all Christians as well.

Because Shaza some of those who I like to think are more 'enlightened' perceive that to assault a child either physically or mentally is an abuse. How may I ask does an eight year old child know whether he/she wishes to be submissive to a 'Gods' will when such a question to one so young and 'unenlightened' is nothing short of laughable? If you wish to move the age of circumcision up to say 16 then perhaps your explanation might make some sense. I would suggest until then it is an abuse of parental power which should be to protect ones children until such times as they are capable of protecting themselves and not subject them to the archaic beliefs of parents or preachers - from whatever religion. Sad

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