Re: Rochdale should create a riverside, heritage themed town centre

Guest Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:46 pm

johnb wrote:Just been out in Rochdale. I didn't think a town could be so depressed.

Business on Drake Street has been decimated by the Metrolink. That work should have been finished as quickly as possible but instead has been allowed to drag on for years. Kindest answer might be to CP all the street and start again.

Town is dead. I remember seeing more people on early closing afternoons in my youth. Even more empty premises the Wheatsheaf might have 50% occupancy. The Walk is dead. Yorkshire Street is not much better. But the Exchange has a new Iceland and Bargain Housewares! Just what the town needs, obviously

Do our councillors, planners and executives actually walk the streets? Do they see the desolation we do? Do they care?

Does it affect them personally ?

I see Mothercare on Yorkshire Street is also to close down on 19 April 2013.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/78801/mothercare-to-close

Charly Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:08 pm

Dont worry folks...everything will be ok once we have our big new shopping centre, its bound to be filled to capacity with nice shops ..... isn't it? Mad

Jeanie Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:27 pm

Charly wrote:Dont worry folks...everything will be ok once we have our big new shopping centre, its bound to be filled to capacity with nice shops ..... isn't it?

No ! nobody will have any money to spend by then it's bad enough now Mad

Atlas Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:37 am

(quote TP) Police now acknowledge that red-light districts have mutated into a global hub for human trafficking and money laundering.

The streets there have been infiltrated by grooming gangs seeking out young, vulnerable girls and marketing them ….. Lessons learnt? (quote)

So there you have it. Can't stop it. Can't join it. Can't control it. So what is your next bright idea then TP?

Atlas Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:44 am

Jeanie wrote:
Charly wrote:Dont worry folks...everything will be ok once we have our big new shopping centre, its bound to be filled to capacity with nice shops ..... isn't it?

No ! nobody will have any money to spend by then it's bad enough now

Untrue. Not backed by facts. Past experience shows that less than 50% of people are adversily affected by downturns or recessions or slumps. There will be some on this forum who are weathering the situation quite well and will have continued in the same vein as previously and who will not baulk at continuing to do so. The effect on them will have been minimal. There are always winners and losers jeanie. The turn is coming but will take some time before the rest realise it. Another two or three years years will see a difference. Meanwhile I urge you to keep the faith - and go for the glass half-full. Wink

Hinch Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:37 am

Atlas wrote:(quote TP) Police now acknowledge that red-light districts have mutated into a global hub for human trafficking and money laundering.

The streets there have been infiltrated by grooming gangs seeking out young, vulnerable girls and marketing them ….. Lessons learnt? (quote)

So there you have it. Can't stop it. Can't join it. Can't control it. So what is your next bright idea then TP?

To say nothing of occasional production of 'snuff movies'.

Atlas Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:13 am

Indeed Hinch. However - - It's pointless discussing a problem if all that can be gained is negativity regarding all aspects. Holland has had legalised prostitution since I was a boy. I know because I was there at the time. It's not the full answer and can never be so - but it's a start considering the greater problems we face as regards STD's inc HIV and wholesale trafficking etc etc. If the law is used in that way as to allow the practice (albeit under scrutiny) and the law is changed to more draconian measures against those that are caught flouting it there is no excuse of mitigating circumstances and leniency which are so often used and leaned towards in our courts. It's the carrot and the stick argument - but it is effective. Initially it will cost a lot of money to effectively police it but will in time ease itself down to a respectable, controllable level. I rest my case - as always - on common-sense. If you're not winning the battle, change your tactics. Exclamation

Guest Mon Mar 25, 2013 2:08 am

Atlas wrote:Holland has had legalised prostitution since I was a boy. I know because I was there at the time.

The Dutch government legalised prostitution in 2000, just 13 years ago - so if you were there as a boy that makes you about 50 years younger than I thought you were, Ray Wink

cyfrifia Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:10 am

Hinch wrote:To say nothing of occasional production of 'snuff movies'.

And so, there are very clearly limits to what can or should be tolerated, never mind legalised.

Atlas Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:37 am

Semantics. In the 1960s it was down to each local government authority to 'police' their anti-social problems as they saw fit. Prostitution was an accepted problem in many Dutch towns and as a consequence it was overseen by the local health authorities in conjunction with the local police and 'allowed', within certain parameters' to trade openly and with impunity. What's the difference - other than a blanket 'law'? It's just playing silly beggers.

As for toleration - that depends on how tolerant you as an individual are. There's nothing intelligent about banging your head against a brick wall. It tends to do damage after a while. Get wise cyfrifia.

teamplayer2 Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:20 pm

Atlas does seem to know a lot about the oldest profession in the world J and the scene in Holland. Something you are not telling us Atlas? Wink

Guest Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:58 pm

teamplayer2 wrote:Atlas does seem to know a lot about the scene in Holland.

Beg to differ about this. Maybe from shepherd Ray's much 'younger days,' but recent years have shown dire mistakes in the Dutch approach. The Dutch say this, and I've seen it too often.

It has even been mandatory to allow an 'establishment' and street working in all towns and cities there .. under a "right to work" criteria; an impressive failure in logic that has fuelled other serious crimes and damaged their national Heritage Tourist Trade.

I think there are far too many empty shops in Rochdale town centre for these subjects to be co-joined and, if I provoked an excess of thread drift, then I apologise.

Bring back the Stocks

Atlas Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:20 am

teamplayer2 wrote:Atlas does seem to know a lot about the oldest profession in the world J and the scene in Holland. Something you are not telling us Atlas?

It's all in the books. I have nothing to hide - nor do I. Go on - have a giggle. It's good for the health. Very Happy

Atlas Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:23 am

Mojo Hill wrote:
teamplayer2 wrote:Atlas does seem to know a lot about the scene in Holland.

Beg to differ about this. Maybe from shepherd Ray's much 'younger days,' but recent years have shown dire mistakes in the Dutch approach. The Dutch say this, and I've seen it too often.

It has even been mandatory to allow an 'establishment' and street working in all towns and cities there .. under a "right to work" criteria; an impressive failure in logic that has fuelled other serious crimes and damaged their national Heritage Tourist Trade.

I think there are far too many empty shops in Rochdale town centre for these subjects to be co-joined and, if I provoked an excess of thread drift, then I apologise.

Bring back the Stocks

At least they can see the wood for the trees. We can't even see the woods here. Illogical. Stupid. But that's people for you. Sad

teamplayer2 Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:24 pm

Tongue in cheek Atlas my old fruit. What a Face

Guest Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:40 pm

johnb wrote:I honestly don't see that the river will make that much difference.

What matters is what is done with Drake Street and Yorkshire Street and the land contained in and surrounding Drake Street, Manchester Road, St Mary's Gate, John Street and Molesworth Street.

Slum clearance of the Milkstone Road ans Tweedale Street areas would not go amiss either.

Rochdale News, Rochdale 'Riviera' project wins Heritage Lottery Fund support

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/79075/rochdale-riviera-project-wins-heritage-lottery-fund-support

The article mentions that a section of the project will involve an activity agenda for locals - to find out about bygone Rochdale people’s contributions, plus to record and celebrate the ‘Riviera project’ in their own way.

There’s also been comment from the Head of the HLF North West that it will persuade locals to be involved and support the adjoining natural environment. It even mentions otters in the town centre.

It reads like an extended, vibrant wild-life sanctuary (that's after today's locals have celebrated their own ways)

There's already some remarkable rhetoric in there, to be further 'worked up' under an interim development grant to help with the Project's fuller submission or researching. Well, now Exclamation

cyfrifia Sun Mar 31, 2013 10:35 pm

This talk of otters seems a bit wishful thinking. Nice idea though. The most practical way to re-establish a wildlife area in the centre of Rochdale would be to arrange for heavy WW2 style bombing of a fairly large designated river and riverside area, leave it as is for seven years and then start to formalise and integrate it into the town. Any other approach will take just as long, be just as disruptive, cost a lot more and get a mediocre result.

Rochdale should create a riverside, heritage themed town centre - Page 2 Handley-page-halifax-bomber-01

Guest Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:25 pm

Perhaps you could pod along from Todmorden and arrange the peacetime evacuee programmes for round here then ?

There was a Rochdale TC (Town Centre) promotion as well this month:

Colin Lambert, Leader of Rochdale Borough Council, said: “ --------------.

We hope to create a cosmopolitan promenade of shops and cafés along the riverbank”

This is as well as the (3rd) new Shopping Centre!

Animal Quackers or what springs to mind ?

Atlas Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:30 am

cyfrifia wrote:This talk of otters seems a bit wishful thinking. Nice idea though. The most practical way to re-establish a wildlife area in the centre of Rochdale would be to arrange for heavy WW2 style bombing of a fairly large designated river and riverside area, leave it as is for seven years and then start to formalise and integrate it into the town. Any other approach will take just as long, be just as disruptive, cost a lot more and get a mediocre result.

That would be, would it not, a reference to 'carpet bombing'. Perhaps you were unaware that less than 5% of bomb tonnage dropped during the Second World War actualy 'hit' the targets they were intended for. Carpet bombing, as introduced by 'Bomber Harris' from '42' onwards was a very inaccurate, wasteful (not to mention air-crew lives and aircraft) and pointless exercise which not only possibly prolonged the war but took away important resources that could have been better used elsewhere. About as useful as the American bombing of the Ho Chi Min trail and 'agent Orange'.
Less negativity and a bit more glass half full wouldn't go amiss on here. Try looking on the bright side for a change. affraid

cyfrifia Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:22 pm

I would not like or expect the idea of bombing to be taken too literally, but the nobel prize was for dynamite and it's peaceful use. Wildlife needs a fairly large area to re-build an ecosystem that will survive. Pools and swampy areas, disturbed earth, and some complexity and randomness in the landscape are unlikely to arise from a 'civic neatness' approach. To visualise a more extensive and 'informal' area for wildlife might be helpful. After the compaction, building, engineering, concrete, rubbish and rubble of centuries, native trees and plants will need a new opportunity to establish.
Rochdale should create a riverside, heritage themed town centre - Page 2 110803083502-large

Rochdale should create a riverside, heritage themed town centre - Page 2 110803083502-large

Atlas Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:45 am

Nature will take over any building site (regardless of detritus) within 12 months. It may not please the eye to a gardener but enjoys the freedom to 'fight' for its place and promotes the winners, animal or mineral. Ideally it should be fenced off (using pig wire and razor topped wire) from the public access for three or four years to allow germination of the various species of both after which it should be re-opened and stiles erected joined by track-paths. I appreciate that this would not allow access for disabled but given the abuse of such grasslands to off-roading machines it is vitally necessary if you want to 'keep' the meadows and copses in natural order. Just a suggestion. Neutral

Hinch Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:31 am

Ain't the fair borough got enough sites like this already? Celebrating our rich and diverse post-industrial heritage?

cyfrifia Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:43 am

Atlas's idea that old industrial sites will be taken over by a covering of vegetation within a few years is correct, but it is only a thin layer. If a genuine nature reserve is to be established in a town centre that has been hammered and exterminated by human activity, it needs to be more thoughtfully done than just fencing off an area and hoping for the best. The answer lies in the soil, and in the water, and how they work together.

Hinch Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:54 am

I think that the Town Hall should be abandoned and fenced off for a few years allowing it to become overgrown by vertigenous creepers and inhabited by all manner of sharp-eyed rodents, pond-life and slimy reptilian creatures.

It would make a great film set.

It's part-way there already!

cyfrifia Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 am

It is part way there already.

When I went in and explored, I noticed it smelled quite damp and musty in places. Quite a cave-like environment. Ideal for moulds and fungi. The other economically viable option might be to turn off the heating and use it for maturing specialist cheese.

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