Towns worse than Rochdale?

Not sure that Sheffield is worse than Rochdale, it's quite nice in parts, but they are making a fuss about an immigrant problem. The immigrants are complaining about the immigrants. It's difficult, most people just want to live in peace without all this disruption.

Nick Clegg will sort them out.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/15/sheffield-page-hall-roma-slovakia-immigration

It's an optimistic city with high aspirations, trying hard but a bit of a mish-mash and struggling with social conditions.

The Telegraph reports "Relations between Roma immigrants and the locals in Sheffield are poisonous and worsening by the day."

Mr Clegg says: “The solution to the problem is in the hands of people in the areas affected - community leaders need to talk to each other to address the issues and show respect for each other."-

As usual, the problem is sudden, mass, poorly controlled immigration into areas that already have difficulties, and as usual, it's the ordinary residents whose lives are upset, and they are told to put up with it and behave themselves.

In the big picture, we may say that Sheffield isn't a town worse than Rochdale. It 's known for having the highest ratio of trees to people of any city in Europe, which makes it pleasant. I remember the remarkable 'dawn chorus' there.

It's useful to look at how other towns get on, how they manage problems.

It must be hard cheese for people who own houses and businesses in the affected area. Already struggling to cope with the economic times, to have their homes and shops suddenly plummet in value and saleability may effectively leave them trapped where they no longer want to be.

cyfrifia wrote:
It must be hard cheese for people who own houses and businesses in the affected area. Already struggling to cope with the economic times, to have their homes and shops suddenly plummet in value and saleability may effectively leave them trapped where they no longer want to be.

Exactly Cyfrifia, this is what has happened in my area, it is disheartening when your property devalues to a large extent due to immigration and, the fact that many immigrants do not appear to have any pride in their own properties that they live in, thus giving the area a 'ghetto' type appearance.

As far as the Asian immigrants being 'up in arms' about the arrival of the Roma community in Sheffield, they probably have valid reasons for their criticism but, on the other hand, I remember when I was working, a group of Asian men standing in our reception area complaining to each other about the Polish immigrants that had started to come over here in force; their concerns were that they were taking over 'their' communities and also 'taking all the jobs' etc ..... ironic eh?!

It is a bit ironic that immigrants feel disadvantaged by immigration.

There is give and take to immigration, it's a trade. Immigrants are given residence, citizenship, and all that comes with it. In return, employers get cheap labour for a while, or, can quickly import pre-trained specialists in computing, finance, medicine or whatever is needed.

The down side of immigration is particularly felt in housing and services, by ordinary householders whose communities are destroyed, houses devalued, whose streets become hazardous, services overstretched, etc. It's a give and take setup, but who is doing the giving and who is taking the loss?

Immigration would be better now limited more to genuine asylum cases, and thoughtfully managed. The UK wants to be generous and be a haven for the oppressed, but it's all become too political and financial, to the benefit of some, but to the disadvantage of - well, how many feel disadvantaged by immigration, is an open question.

(quote) - well, how many feel disadvantaged by immigration, is an open question.

Too many, is the answer to that one. The unscrupulous often turn on the 'foreigner' when vying for position or to unscrew themselves from unpleasant situations. Hitler wanted to send all the Roma to Madagascar- although what the Madagascans had done to Hitler is something of a mystery - but changed his mind and had most of them gassed instead. 'I take it you get my point'?
There has always been a problem with the 'Roma'. They have a completely different outlook and way of life than most others. Just the word 'Roma' sends shivers across most communities and to have to 'have' them amongst any settled community is bound to end in tears. There's no answer to it. We have yet to 'grow' sufficiently intelligent before such 'problems' will finally be vanquished.

Conversations about immigration often bring up references to Hitler, he appeared fairly promptly in this one. We went to a lot of trouble to eliminate him from politics, so, it's a pity his influence is still there.

The Roma do have a different way of life. British live in crowded terraced streets with no room for much outdoor life. The Roma like to be outside and chat, socialise in outdoor groups, to wander about. Probably better than the internet really, but there isn't much room for that in our small crowded streets.

Apparently the UK has more Roma now than any other European country, which is a bit surprising. The concern is about immigration generally, how it could be better controlled and managed. The Roma are just a small part of that.

Apart from Hitler, another, hopefully more relevant British concern is house prices. Whichever way you look at it, for people who have maybe started from nothing, worked, scrimped and saved, bought their own house, improved it, and hoped it would be a financial asset as well as a safe place to live in, to have the value destroyed, for that house to become almost unsaleable, the neighborhood unpleasant to live in, is a totally unfair and massive theft, often a life changing tragedy.

Immigration may have short term benefits for the economy, but long term costs. Open borders may suit political outlooks, but a sense of practicality and fairness has to come into it as well.

Why should the ordinary householder have to suffer the downside of immigration, to effectively have their wealth removed from them at a stroke, and be trapped in a troubled location? Where is the fairness and good government in that?

Maybe we can learn something from the Roma and their way of life, at least there is some sense of freedom about it. As the Roma like the outdoor life, an ideal location for them might be in Mr. Cameron's or Mr. Clegg's garden sheds, probably well constructed and roomy with plenty of garden to light a fire and invite friends. But, probably more likely some poor elderly people will find them living next door to the terraced houses they worked all their life to pay for and to keep.

If we can learn anything from the Roma, it's that working hard, saving and doing the right thing gives no protection from the whims of politicans. If it doesn't suit the political agenda, you are a nobody, and will be swept aside and ignored, or at best sent to Madagascar, which sounds more and more like an attractive option.

http://thecarefreetraveler.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/madagascar_africa.jpg

Perhaps - although I do hear there is a great deal of 'political' strife, not to mention killings, going on there at the present time. It's that 'politics' again. What a pity there isn't another way.

I take your point as regards property values and disruptions - the same argument was made regarding the influx of Asians in the 1960's and no doubt still persists in many areas of Rochdale to this day.

A cosmopolitan world requires we take on different attitudes and settle for things that may disturb or upset us. I remember the old adage - change or suffer the consequences. Not a lot more to be said really as there is nothing, acceptable, that can be done about it.  

There may be something acceptable that can be done about it, similarly to anti-social behavior or drug dealing on the streets, one year, people affected will complain and be told "there is nothing, acceptable, that can be done about it," until they give up complaining, then the climate of opinion changes and eventually something is done about it, it depends on the social and political climate.

But, to a great extent, you are probably right, the damage is done and we are stuck with it.

On the subject of Sheffield, how it used to be and how it is now, this news story about a man being battered to death in a daytime attack in the park does raise the question, would British people behave like this, or is it more an immigrant behavior?

Of course, British people murder each other, but the casual use of public space for a prolonged and vicious battering to death, as other people are trying to go about their everyday business, it's a different way of going on, and not one we want to get used to.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/killer-laughed-during-sheffield-attack-1-6252603

This was Iraqi Kurds, perhaps refugees from a war zone? They obviously, and understandably do bring problematic behavior with them. On reading the story, some may blame Facebook rather than immigration policy, that's a matter of opinion.

In France this event would most likely be described as a 'Crime Passional' or a crime committed whilst the defendant was not of sound but a highly disturbed mind due to emotional trauma. It isn't a crime of premeditated violence in as much as both men agreed to meet to 'thrash' out their differences - one could say the lead up to an old fashioned dual - but where one participant had a selection of weapons at this disposal. It may be that the defendant assumed his adversary would also be 'tooled up'. Such isn't clear from the report. What it isn't is a case of 'immigration' or 'immigrants' but more a case of cultural differences whereby 'honour' is at stake and has to be satisfied. It is no longer a 'culture' used in this country to the extent it used to be although some still take to violence over 'women' as a normal reaction to being slighted/dumped etc etc. IF we are happy to allow immigration we must also be aware that such 'differences' will abound. Only generational change will remove this sort of thinking.

We can't jump to conclusions on the basis of one reported event, but there were several eyewitnesses to this apparently public and prolonged execution. The distinction between what may be connected with immigration and what is to do with cultural differences seems thin. On a very day to day basis, people do not want such echoes of war zones in their neighborhoods.

Mistakes have been made both on foreign policy and on immigration. It's not good, and as usual, it's ordinary people who suffer the consequences of the mistakes and vanities of politicians. It's a problematic situation which needs attention and managing. Simply filling our jails with imported criminals isn't a practical solution.

cyfrifia wrote:On the subject of Sheffield, how it used to be and how it is now, this news story about a man being battered to death in a daytime attack in the park does raise the question, would British people behave like this, or is it more an immigrant behavior?

Of course, British people murder each other, but the casual use of public space for a prolonged and vicious battering to death, as other people are trying to go about their everyday business, it's a different way of going on, and not one we want to get used to.

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/killer-laughed-during-sheffield-attack-1-6252603

This was Iraqi Kurds, perhaps refugees from a war zone? They obviously, and understandably do bring problematic behavior with them. On reading the story, some may blame Facebook rather than immigration policy, that's a matter of opinion.

What nonsense, Cyfrifa. Are you reading the news selectively to come up with these ideas? I can think of a number of cases without trying where British people battered someone to death in public. A group murdered an immigrant recenly by battering him and then setting fire to him because they decided he was a paedophile. Gary Newlove, Sophie Lancaster etc etc.

Everyone must read the news selectively, as it would not be possible to read it all. Yes, people being battered to death is nothing new, but you have to admit (perhaps) if you read the story, that the 'style' of public execution is rather different. The public spectacle nature of it seems central. The laughing and stabbing, rather theatrical, reminds of a bullfight, or one of the beheading events that Saddam Hussein reportedly held in sports stadiums.

People will make up their own minds about immigration and it's effects, attitudes will probably depend on the effects it has on their own lives. It's tricky though, because it's irreversible. A decision about building a motorway which effects a lot of households is eventually reversible, it may be removed after a couple of centuries, but populations who settle in Britain remain indefinitely. The effects of the Norman invasion are still with us, 1066 and all that. It has been portrayed as a repressive regime, but now historians are seeing it as an enlightened and civilising form of government, all a matter of opinion, but some reliable facts do help.

I've read the story and no it doesn't put me in mind of Saddam Hussein's beheading events, or a bullfight. It appears to me like an angry man killing someone.

Yes, put in it's simplest terms, yes, that's what it is, an angry man killing someone,

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/crime/killer-laughed-during-sheffield-attack-1-6252603

Closer reading shows elements of theatre, honor killing, public execution with an audience, a video made of the killing, the killer playing to, and almost involving, the audience, a use of public space in the daytime to make a point very gruesomely. The killer then calmly waiting for the police to arrive.

Difficult to know more than general impression though, without being there or seeing the video. Sheffield may not be worse than Rochdale, though it has some problems, so how about Rotherham?

http://rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/2013/06/09/home-affairs-select-committee-to-publish-report-on-localised-child-grooming/

Shall we compare Rochdale to Bradford, where a groomer thought he would give himself a little treat this Christmas day, until the police intervened.

31-year-old Abid Miskeen, of Little Horton Lane, Bradford, on bail after being charged in October with two offences of sexual activity with a child under 16, appeared in court accused of abducting a 15-year-old girl on Christmas Day from the local authority care home where she lives in Bradford.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/10902187.Bradford_man_charged_with_abducting_girl__15/?ref=mr

Some time ago, the reaction of the police to a girl missing from care might have been less interested, and would not have been reported as news.

A bit of friendly competition between the grooming towns of the north of England, to see which can most effectively smash the grooming industry might be a good thing.

I really do hope you used the word 'competition' as tongue in cheeck reference.


As for smashing organised child abuse. I suggest we start with the very Police forces in charge. As GMP were savaged in the recent report and I see the Police Commissioner has been very quiet. Considering not a day goes by without a sound bite from him. Same applies to Sir Peter Fahy.

Silence is deafening.

Hinch wrote:

We should start a 'Fahey Should Go' campaign Chill. Am thinking of writing to the Police Commissioner. The SCR makes his position untenable in my view. I know Spartacus and others feel similarly.

Gets my support.

Merseyside seems a bit more violent than usual, with
Stabbing
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/oldham-athletic-fan-mark-gregory-6470962
Shooting
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/man-shot-liverpool-street-targeted-6470077
Crossbow attack and torture.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/man-shot-crossbow-liverpool---6465522