Re: Politically Correct ?

Irishman Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:19 pm

You read to much press Cyfrifia, this is men taking advantage of children, plying them with drink and other things to get what they want, very little organisation about it, nothing new either, it's been happening from the begining of human existence. The only difference from walking into a bar and picking up a girl at the weekend is age difference, quite disgusting and disturbing as it is, we let it happen, parents let it happen. I have two girls none of which have ever been in town on their own at 15 beyond 9.00pm and only somewhere I knew at that time of night. Knowing what your child is doing where she gets to is as important as breathing air.

Being organised is taking pictures selling them on the net or child prostitution, making money from abusing children or organised child trafficking and the rest.

cyfrifia Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:32 pm

Irishman wrote:You read to much press Cyfrifia,

Ah, that explains your ideas Irishman, if you don't believe any of the newspapers or anything on TV or radio, or evidence given in court, or evidence given to parliament, or evidence given by the organisations and agencies that work to protect children.

That makes a certain sort of sense, if you don't believe anything, then as far as you are concerned, nothing happened.

Irishman Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:18 pm

There was no organisation about it, just dirty old men doing what dirty old men do, if the girls weren’t allowed out it would not have happened.

Charly Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:28 pm

So, if we all kept our daughters at home, maybe go as far as not educate them, take the vote from women, tie the wives to the kitchen sink and keep them barefoot and pregnant, ah yes, that would be ok... soon be back in the dark ages

johnb Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:40 pm

Statistics are funny things;

If, of the cases where ethnicity was reported, they are presented corrected for the relative population sizes of the offenders, the significance of Asian on White offences increases dramatically - but you can show anything with diligent statistical presentation.

cyfrifia Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:19 pm

The question was whether political correctness and a reluctance to be seen as racist hampered and delayed the cases against the asian grooming gangs in Rochdale.

Those who think there were no failings and delays of this kind in the police, C.P.S., social work departments and other agencies involved may not have followed the facts and timeline.

This is a different question to whether there was a racial aspect to mainly Pakistani men grooming mainly white girls, which is more emotive one, and may cloud judgement on the question of why it was allowed to go on on such a scale and for so long.

Police policy on ethnicity was reviewed after the 2001 riots in Bradford, Burnley and Oldham, when the police found themselves being attacked. This may explain the consequent reluctance of officers to investigate crimes within the asian community in the north west of England, such investigations would be seen as more sensitive and complicated, probably involving the possibility of being seen as right wing, and, there is always plenty of more straightforward police work that needs getting on with.

After all that delay, it was only when Nazir Afzal was appointed as the north-west head of the Crown Prosecution Service that these grooming cases, previously considered to be unsuitable for prosecution were prioritised and prepared for prosecution, which was not an easy process.

That delay and reluctance to investigate and prosecute, rooted in political correctness, may have given asian grooming gangs the impression that they were somehow 'untouchable', a situation which we all hope is very much reversed now.

Guest Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:25 pm

Irishman wrote:There was no organisation about it, just dirty old men doing what dirty old men do, if the girls weren’t allowed out it would not have happened.

Perhaps it's time we also ditched some old terminology, like ' dirty old men. '

Cases show a wide age spectrum of suspects-offenders:

Seven men of Pakistani origin were remanded in custody today charged with a total of 32 offences. Their ages are 22, 23, 26, 28 and three are aged 21.
High Wycombe sex abuse inquiry: Seven men in court

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-20450302.

Two headline grabbing trials in 2010 of large Organised Crime Groups (OCG) in Rochdale, which has previously been an oft-used police expression, involved men found guilty of monstrous child sexual abuses ... who would not, individually or collectively, be described as 'old.'

It's a bit unusual to release an Interim report at its half-way stage, during a 2-year period of reviewing evidence. One comment has been that intention includes a "caution" to the police, local authorities and other main agencies involved to get their Partnership Acts together pale

Poppyanna555 Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:04 pm

Johnb wrote:
If, of the cases where ethnicity was reported, they are presented corrected for the relative population sizes of the offenders, the significance of Asian on White offences increases dramatically - but you can show anything with diligent statistical presentation.

Pipped me to the post there Johnb - I was about to post the very same arguement, spot on.

cyfrifia Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:34 am

The recent report on the sexual exploitation of children by children's commissioner Sue Berelowitz shows how poor the recording of statistics is, ethnicity of offenders has not been recorded enough. This 'colour blind' method made the statistics fairly meaningless on ethnicity.

The media have taken a similar approach, reports of rapes, assaults and other crimes of violence very obviously missed out mention of ethnicity, until quite recently there has been a change. This didn't serve any good purpose, simply leaving people guessing.

The political correctness which caused all this vagueness left a huge gap in statistics, and plenty of room for conjecture.

The report gives a shocking picture of the extent of this form of cruelty and damage to children, and, as in the local cases, the very young ages of some of the victims is so sad.

Harrowing detail had been left out of the report, the cases mentioned are harrowing enough. We should not forget the estimated large number of victims of multiple rape, the use of hard drugs and violence, the young age and vulnerability of the girls who were victims. Only a very few victims have spoken out, and many men in Rochdale and surrounding areas were involved.

The country is shocked at the extent of all the forms of child abuse going on, from grooming to pimping to traffiking, abductions, disappearances of children, and the very young ages of many victims.

Pakistani/ white ethnicity is obvious in the local grooming cases, denial of that is ridiculous, but that's local to the area. All ethnicities are involved in differing patterns of child sexual abuse in England.

The thread is about political correctness, if political correctness has made it so much easier for grooming gangs to operate, then, it is better to speak plainly. Smile

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/21/children-commissioner-defends-sex-abuse-report

UP THE DALE Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:57 am

Still no proof at all been put forward that "political correctness " has played any part in the delay or prevention of, bringing to justice, anyone involved with sexual exploitation. Many people who talk about "political correctness" can't even say what it is or means.

What there is proof off is victims not being listened to and believed by social workers, police and others because of their backgrounds and or age and because of who the abusers were.

cyfrifia Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:21 am

Quote: "My Pakistani heritage helped cut through barriers within the black and minority ethnic communities, and white professionals' oversensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/21/nazir-afzal-cps-child-abuse

Quote: "There are some communities where we have feared to tread, and by 'we' I mean every agency. I am hopeful that no longer exists."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/profiles/nazir-afzal-we-tackled-grooming-gangs-now-we-have-to-confront-forced-marriage-among-travellers-7769697.html

Nazir Afzal, Head of the Crown Prosecution Service in the north-west of England speaks his opinion plainly, saying "political correctness may well have contributed to justice being stalled."

It is difficult to 'prove' anything about people's attitudes and mind set, U.T.D. but such attitudes and mind sets can and do make a huge difference to how our society works, which is exactly why 'political correctness' has been used as a method to control the way people think. It has it's downside.

UP THE DALE Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:57 am

These are all opinions, not facts. If it can't be proved it remains an opinion. What is FACT is the victims were not listened to, and or taken seriously, and that is what delayed the prosecutions by years.

Irishman Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:04 am

Charly wrote: So, if we all kept our daughters at home, maybe go as far as not educate them, take the vote from women, tie the wives to the kitchen sink and keep them barefoot and pregnant, ah yes, that would be ok... soon be back in the dark ages

Hogwash, you know very well I didn't say that but your points always have to be extreme just to make you feel good Charly.

Charly Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:08 am

Irishman wrote:There was no organisation about it, just dirty old men doing what dirty old men do, if the girls weren’t allowed out it would not have happened.

If girls weren't allowed out?
What more do you need to say?

Irishman Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:11 am

So you would let your 15 year old daughter out and about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers?

Irishman Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:23 am

My eldest is 21, well educated, good Job, her own home, never been tied to a kitchen sink in her life, nor has she roamed Rochdale streets at 15 hanging out in kebab houses with taxi drivers being abused, were did I go wrong with her?

cyfrifia Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:43 am

Irishman wrote:So you would let your 15 year old daughter out and about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers?

No-ones daughter should be "about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers." And if they are, call the police, they will be interested to know.

Spartacus Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:21 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237170/A-feminist-revolution-cruelly-backfired--brutal-lesson-Britain-telling-truth-sex-gangs-race.html[url][/url]

A feminist revolution that cruelly backfired - and why Amsterdam's legal brothels are a brutal lesson for Britain about telling the truth on sex gangs and race

Holland hopes the rot will be halted. Last year, 242 lover boy crimes were investigated by police, half of them involving the forced prostitution of girls under 18. Campaigner Anita de Wit says this is a fraction — ‘one per cent’ — of the true number. ‘There are thousands of girls being preyed on by male gangs in Holland,’ she says.

Anita visits schools to warn girls exactly what a lover boy looks like, and makes no bones of the fact that most of the gangs are operated by Dutch-born Moroccan and Turkish men.

‘I am not politically correct. I am not afraid of being called a racist, which would be untrue. I tell the girls that lover boys are young, dark-skinned and very good looking. They will have lots of money and bling as well as a big car. They will give out cigarettes and vodka. They will tell a girl that she is beautiful.

We should be educating our children. They are at RISK - that risk comes in many forms and one of them is by organised gangs of PAKISTANI men and this has been going on for a long time.

They are at risk from males and females of any sex, race and religion including family members, close friends, teachers and priests.

Children should be educated about the risks and there are no taboos.

Irishman Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:01 pm

cyfrifia wrote:
Irishman wrote:So you would let your 15 year old daughter out and about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers?

No-ones daughter should be "about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers." And if they are, call the police, they will be interested to know.

Of course all children should be protected by the parents until they become an age when they are smart enough to do it themselves, my youngest has boundaries and she is well aware of the reasons as I did with my eldest who also explains it wisely to her younger sister, none of them feel deprived. At 15 you will never find her on the streets of Rochdale after 9.00pm and if the parents/carers of those abused made sure of that we wouldn't be debating it now.

Charly Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:20 pm

Irishman wrote:So you would let your 15 year old daughter out and about town all hours of the morning hanging around Kebab houses with taxi drivers?

You were always first to complain if I mentioned your daughters Irish Wink

For the record my 3 daughters are all settled with their own homes and families, never had an ounce of trouble with them, now my son..... he's been a pain in the arris Mad

Irishman Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:21 pm

So you didn't let them roam about Rochdale late at night at 15 in kebab houses and mixing with low life? Very Happy

cyfrifia Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:33 pm

Lover Boy. Half hour video, anyone got a spare half hour to watch it? Shocked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eugrPB7SsE

UP THE DALE Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:40 pm

Spartacus wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237170/A-feminist-revolution-cruelly-backfired--brutal-lesson-Britain-telling-truth-sex-gangs-race.html[url][/url]

A feminist revolution that cruelly backfired - and why Amsterdam's legal brothels are a brutal lesson for Britain about telling the truth on sex gangs and race

Holland hopes the rot will be halted. Last year, 242 lover boy crimes were investigated by police, half of them involving the forced prostitution of girls under 18. Campaigner Anita de Wit says this is a fraction — ‘one per cent’ — of the true number. ‘There are thousands of girls being preyed on by male gangs in Holland,’ she says.

Anita visits schools to warn girls exactly what a lover boy looks like, and makes no bones of the fact that most of the gangs are operated by Dutch-born Moroccan and Turkish men.

‘I am not politically correct. I am not afraid of being called a racist, which would be untrue. I tell the girls that lover boys are young, dark-skinned and very good looking. They will have lots of money and bling as well as a big car. They will give out cigarettes and vodka. They will tell a girl that she is beautiful.

We should be educating our children. They are at RISK - that risk comes in many forms and one of them is by organised gangs of PAKISTANI men and this has been going on for a long time.

They are at risk from males and females of any sex, race and religion including family members, close friends, teachers and priests.

Children should be educated about the risks and there are no taboos.

Absolutely correct, Spartacus. You could add politicians to that list, and celebrities. By concentrating on British Pakistani men, like some do, there is a risk of forgetting that the uncle as an example could be the potential rapist, but it suits some for that to happen.

Still no proof that so called political correctness had anything to do with the delay in bringing to justice any of the monsters guilty of child abuse. Incompetent social workers and police not doing their jobs properly were responsible.

cyfrifia Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:00 pm

Political correctness was introduced into public life in an effort to make people speak and think in 'approved' ways. It has changed social attitudes, but also had the effect of suppressing information and opinion. Without interviewing everyone concerned, and getting signed confessions, it would be impossible to prove that political correctness has affected attitudes in the police and legal profession.

UP THE DALE Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:58 pm

Exactly there is no proof that so called political correctness was responsible for any delay in justice being served. It's an excuse to draw attention away from the failings of the police etc, and the real reason, ie NOT believing/listening to the poor victims. Many including some on here seam more concerned about being able to have a go at particular sections of the community, than having any sympathy for the victims.

I am not convinced political correctness even exists, let alone been introduced to change people's attitudes. It's usually a saying, often thrown about by moaning right wingers and bigots, often as an example when they believe that in equality is threatened in certain circumstances.

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