Re: Politically Correct ?

cyfrifia Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:57 pm

It is, and the way people apparently divert or deny or excuse, or anything but face the facts is a puzzling thing about Rochdale. It does seem that people genuinely see it in a different (local) perspective.

Poppyanna555 Sun Nov 25, 2012 1:36 pm

Most of us do not see things any differently Cyfrifia but, we have been silenced for so long in the name of this thread. I do believe though that the recent grooming scandal has blown in a wind of change, people are very angry and rightly so,

cyfrifia Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:49 pm

It is a pity things have been allowed to develop to such a point. If the attitudes that have led to it change, those involved in the grooming and sex trade business will be less able to operate in Rochdale.

Looseness in R.M.B.C. arangements that made things easy for the groomers will have to be be sorted, to do that, management will have to carry the can, blaming the footsoldiers is not right. Community 'leaders' who are unhelpful need to be confronted with realities and effectively dismissed if they cannot see a way forward.

Some seem to argue themselves, via ancient and mysterious local political standpoints into a 'it didn't really happen' or a 'we demand nothing is done about it' attitude, but if there really is a wind of change, it's hopeful for the future. Smile

Poppyanna555 Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:44 pm

I for one am hopeful Cyfriia but, like you said, this sorry state of affairs should never have been allowed to fester to the point it has causing misery for the young girls and their families and ultimately dragging the name of our town through the mud. Of course it's not just our town either as I see arrests are being made in other towns up and down the country but, we always be remembered as the town 'where it all first started'.

Going back to your earlier post, I don't believe for one minute that our townsfolk have been guilty of any kind of regional apathy, or certainly not the ordinary man on the street, those in authority on the other hand have and no matter what anyone says to me, my belief is that this IS solely down to their being blinkered by political correctness and, but for the terrible crimes that have taken place in this town, this mode of thinking would have been allowed to continue unchecked.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:45 pm

Charly wrote:
UP THE DALE wrote:More and more British Muslims are actually living in a western way, but with that some are learning bad British ways of life, like vandalism, attacking fire-fighters as was the case in Deeplish recently, and other things that going back 20 years ago did not seam to happen, so too much westernisation happening in many ways.

Now I know you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the above is the British way of life this goes on the world over, as you might see from tv news bulletins, surely you cant put all that down to the Brits!

I did not say that it is the British way of life, and did not put it all down to the Brits!! But you know that and you tried to twist my words. And I am well aware that such vandalism/anti social behaviour, happens throughout the world. I was giving examples of negative behaviour. I should have added another negative is the rising number of their community suffering from alcohol abuse , but that is the fault of themselves.

I should have pointed out positives, like the involvement in charities, sports teams and many more examples, this despite with being faced with racism from Neanderthals-no wonder they like to keep to themselves.

If I am living in cloud cuckoo land, it's better than living in a world that on ever sees the negative of the British Pakistani community, like some do!

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:12 pm

Spartacus wrote:
UP THE DALE wrote:

I too agree that I want to see our daughters as free as our sons, but lets get this right, its not just Muslim women who are treated as second class citizens, Christianity treats women as 2nd class citizens too. There is a lot of inequality within most if not all religions.

I disagree with the inequality which goes in within the Christian Church. Load of stuff and nonsense the way they discriminate against women and gays.

However, that's not what we are talking about here. There is no need to defend the entire British Pakistani community, Up the Dale or the Muslim religion. They are not under attack. I am not the type of person who would tar everyone with the same brush, there is nothing worse.

What we are trying to discuss is the recent cases in Rochdale and the victims and abusers involved. We've agreed that abuse goes on all over the world and in every community. If we were discussing abuse within families we would not distract from the subject by saying that it also goes on in the church and vice versa. So why is it every time the Rochdale case comes up there is a need to point elsewhere?

We need to tackle all forms of abuse and different approaches are required in different situations, education is the key.

As far as I am concerned there is definitely a pattern all over the country involving the grooming and exploitation of young white girls by Pakistani men who deem them worthless yet profitable. It needs to be tackled and we need to call a spade a spade where appropriate.

UP THE DALE wrote:I am not convinced there was any deafness due to who the criminals were, I just think some police and social workers looked down on the poor victims. Snobbery was more likely to be a reason, on the part of some. Maybe some individual police or social workers were wary to investigate due to who the abusers were, but but I don't think that's the case. Maybe because of the number of abusers it might have been more difficult to investigate?

Looking at the Smith and Saville cases, there was definitely a situation in which the abused were not believed because of who they were and because of who the abusers were. There was this wrong belief that due to being celebrities and a politician that they could not possibly do such things-well nowadays we know celebrities, politicians, priests, family members etc etc can be and are abusers.

We have to disagree here. The victims were believed -- that's the point. They were believed but no one was prepared to tackle the celebrities/politicians/men involved because of the fuss it would create. It was easier to drop it then deal with it.

We must deal with it wherever it happens and in all forms. There can be no taboos. Where the abuse involves Pakistani grooming gangs then let's not be afraid to say so and address it. It's in everyone's interest to do so.

But some to see the whole British Pakistani community in a negative way, you don't, then again you are no racist.

We do as a community have to tackle the sex grooming that takes place by some members of the BP community, and some of that has do be done from within the community. The point I am trying to make, is that if there was no such activity from small minority of the BP community, there is still a lot of sex predators out there in the town and elsewhere.

It does have to be tackled the abuse of children from any source including from within the BP community, and yes education can play a part, I am sure, but these monsters very rarely care who their victim is as long as they get their way.

I am not sure anyone has really denied there is a problem of BP men sexual exploiting white girls, but it's a case of pointing out that to concentrate on them there is a danger we forget that most sex crimes happen from people known to the victim.

"We have to disagree here. The victims were believed -- that's the point. They were believed but no one was prepared to tackle the celebrities/politicians/men involved because of the fuss it would create. It was easier to drop it then deal with it.

We must deal with it wherever it happens and in all forms. There can be no taboos. Where the abuse involves Pakistani grooming gangs then let's not be afraid to say so and address it. It's in everyone's interest to do so. [/quote]

If that's the case then it's nothing to do with so called political correctness, it's people not doing their job right, by not supporting the victims. From what I understand, in the grooming case, girls were not taken seriously, but lets not forget the enquires are still on going, and until we have the full facts no one really knows why there was such delays in justice happening, and the victim's agony going on so much longer than it should have done.

I absolutely agree about there should be no, no go areas. What ever the community, who ever the person/s involved there must be full investigation of such crimes, indeed any crimes, whether they are BP grooming gangs, family members, priests, politicians, celebrities.

I think I have covered your points Spartacus, if I haven't please let us know. I am enjoying having a civil conversation with you on a very awful subject. At least with you, you don't start getting personal, and I know you don't have a racist agenda, unlike some. I don't think there is much disagreement, between us.

Spartacus Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:33 pm

Thanks, Up the Dale. I enjoy having a good discussion too Smile

You are right, some people were not doing their jobs properly. Others, were doing their jobs properly but were being ignored. The power to do something about what was happening was at that top and they did zilch.

I know at least one person who spoke out and pushed it who no longer has a job with the council. If we ever get the full in-depth inquiry the victims deserve it will be interesting to see how many of the outspoken within the lower ranks lost their jobs in the cuts.

cyfrifia Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:39 pm

Poppyanna555 wrote: my belief is that this IS solely down to their being blinkered by political correctness and, but for the terrible crimes that have taken place in this town, this mode of thinking would have been allowed to continue unchecked.

You will gather, I'm of similar opinion, poppy, the culture of political correctness has been very sadly damaging in this matter, although it has had good results in other ways.

'Some' people, UTD for example do not even believe such a thing exists, which had me doubting for a while, as he is so adamant. However, on reflection, I still think the same, political correctness is or was a part of the problem.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:06 pm

Spartacus wrote:Thanks, Up the Dale. I enjoy having a good discussion too

You are right, some people were not doing their jobs properly. Others, were doing their jobs properly but were being ignored. The power to do something about what was happening was at that top and they did zilch.

I know at least one person who spoke out and pushed it who no longer has a job with the council. If we ever get the full in-depth inquiry the victims deserve it will be interesting to see how many of the outspoken within the lower ranks lost their jobs in the cuts.

Quite a few I believe lost heir jobs for speaking out, so much for allowing whistle blowing, which by the way some see as "political correctness" to allow. The crisis intervention team were either totally closed down or lost many staff for trying to do the right thing. Be interesting to see if any of the top ranks get shown up, or will it just be the lower ranks blamed.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:13 pm

cyfrifia wrote:
Poppyanna555 wrote: my belief is that this IS solely down to their being blinkered by political correctness and, but for the terrible crimes that have taken place in this town, this mode of thinking would have been allowed to continue unchecked.

You will gather, I'm of similar opinion, poppy, the culture of political correctness has been very sadly damaging in this matter, although it has had good results in other ways.

'Some' people, UTD for example do not even believe such a thing exists, which had me doubting for a while, as he is so adamant. However, on reflection, I still think the same, political correctness is or was a part of the problem.

Show me where there is any evidence of "political correctness" being responsible for the problem and I will gladly admit to being wrong. I bet you can't. But so long as the Mail and Sun etc say it exists or is to blame for societies problems, idiots will continue to say it is to blame for everything that is wrong, including police and social workers not doing their jobs right when faced with victims of child abuse.

There has not been any full disclosure of what went wrong in the sex grooming case of Rochdale. There is still ongoing investigations, so until all the evidence of what went wrong it is impossible to say what really happened fully.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:26 pm

cyfrifia wrote:It is, and the way people apparently divert or deny or excuse, or anything but face the facts is a puzzling thing about Rochdale. It does seem that people genuinely see it in a different (local) perspective.

Tell me, WHO is diverting, denying or excusing, any of the problems regarding the sexual exploitation of children in this town?

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:30 pm

Poppyanna555 wrote:Most of us do not see things any differently Cyfrifia but, we have been silenced for so long in the name of this thread. I do believe though that the recent grooming scandal has blown in a wind of change, people are very angry and rightly so,

In what way have you been silenced on this or any thread? Yes many of are angry about the recent grooming scandal, but I am also very angry at sexual exploitation of ANYBODY. Here is a FACT, more children suffer sexual attacks by people they know than from strangers like sex grooming gangs.

Charly Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:42 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:
Charly wrote:
UP THE DALE wrote:More and more British Muslims are actually living in a western way, but with that some are learning bad British ways of life, like vandalism, attacking fire-fighters as was the case in Deeplish recently, and other things that going back 20 years ago did not seam to happen, so too much westernisation happening in many ways.

Now I know you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the above is the British way of life this goes on the world over, as you might see from tv news bulletins, surely you cant put all that down to the Brits!

I did not say that it is the British way of life, and did not put it all down to the Brits!! But you know that and you tried to twist my words.

Ermmm, thats what you wrote so how could I twist it?
And as for your comment about 'too much Westernisation happening' what do you suggest ?

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:57 pm

NO it's NOT what I wrote. So you DID twist it, MAYBE unintentionally, but you got it wrong.

I was talking about British Pakistanis become too westernised in some aspects of life, like alcohol consumption.

Charly Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:03 pm

So you are denying the quoted piece was written by you?

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 9:26 pm

Poppyanna555 Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:00 pm

UTD wrote:
In what way have you been silenced on this or any thread?

You have got it wrong UTD, when I said that we have been silenced for so long in the name of this thread I was referring to the title of this thread, ie: Politically Correct as in political correctness and when I said 'we' I was referring to Rochdale folk collectively in response to Cyfrifia's comment about people seeing things differently from a (local perspective) - I was not referring to anyone being silenced on this thread.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:04 pm

Ok Poppyanna, sorry about that, I misunderstood. Cheers. Smile

Poppyanna555 Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:23 pm

No problem, glad we have cleared it up! Smile

cyfrifia Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:47 am

UP THE DALE wrote:Absolutely,I accept that many in authority denied that there was a problem of British Muslims exploiting girls

and later

UP THE DALE wrote:I am not sure anyone has really denied there is a problem of BP men sexual exploiting white girls

Well, at least you seem to be able to change your opinion. Rolling Eyes

UP THE DALE Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:23 am

Well spotted. Smile

Should have added on this forum no one has denied that there was a problem of British Muslims exploiting girls.

Mind you, I can and do change my opinion when new evidence etc comes to light on subjects, and I can and do admit to making mistakes or being wrong when I am, unlike some.

cyfrifia Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:46 am

It's good to have an open mind. It's difficult to imagine what evidence of the existence and influence of, political correctness on the professions, teaching, police, social work, and on society in general you could accept.

Political correctness stifled debate and limited what people 'can' and 'cannot' say. If you are not convinced political correctness existed, or had effects, because it is 'in the mind', what evidence would be convincing? Perhaps a queue of people saying "Political correctness prevented me from saying what I felt I wanted to, and should have said."

Hinch Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:12 am

cyfrifia wrote:
UP THE DALE wrote:Absolutely,I accept that many in authority denied that there was a problem of British Muslims exploiting girls
and later
UP THE DALE wrote:I am not sure anyone has really denied there is a problem of BP men sexual exploiting white girls

Well, at least you seem to be able to change your opinion.

Well spotted Charly!

Well UTD, I can only stand in admiration at your conversion; presumably on the road to Damascus. I do think you might have mentioned it given its significance. What brought about this amazing volte face?

Might you now also be pressing for Tesco & Asda to start stocking tinned dolphin along with their bargain-basement tuna?

I do agree though. One should never be afraid or revising one's opinions in the light of further information or being convinced through debate.

I changed my mind about Tony Blairs criminality re the Iraq war after listening to Trevor Hoyle's impassioned but informed argument. (Pity Trevor hasn't joined the forum.)

UP THE DALE Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:21 pm

First of all Hinch it was cyfrifia who spotted my mistake.

Secondly if you read my post after theirs you will see I answered the point made. Turns out on THIS occasion I have not changed my opinion.

As for supermarkets selling mercury laden dolphin meat, there are enough people with mental health issues without adding to the problem.

UP THE DALE Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:37 pm

cyfrifia wrote:It's good to have an open mind. It's difficult to imagine what evidence of the existence and influence of, political correctness on the professions, teaching, police, social work, and on society in general you could accept.

Political correctness stifled debate and limited what people 'can' and 'cannot' say. If you are not convinced political correctness existed, or had effects, because it is 'in the mind', what evidence would be convincing? Perhaps a queue of people saying "Political correctness prevented me from saying what I felt I wanted to, and should have said."

Any proof would be a good start, but instead you talk about things like "stifled debate" and what people can and cannot say. If it means we don't have as much sexist, homophobic, racist etc debate then good, but that's more down to laws being passed. Other things the people who complain about PC are unhappy about are Health and Safety laws mainly for workers. I still don't know what we are all not allowed to talk about, that's due to PC, please can you let us know?

Not one shred of evidence has been put forward that the grooming in Rochdale either occurred, was not investigated or prosecuted due to "political correctness".

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