Re: Serious Case Review (SCR) Rochdale.

Spartacus Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:35 am

While am at it, can someone please tell me what the missing training chip is when confronted with the following?

I have been abused
I have been raped
My friends are being abused
My friends have been raped
Our daughter has been raped
Local girls are being groomed, abused and raped.

Anyone here without the appropriate training have an idea what action should be taken?

My/the abusers/rapists/groomers are Pakistani men.

Is this where the appropriate training falls down?

[i]

Let's not forget only a handful of these girls were able to testify against their abusers. Do thing figures quoted in the report refer only to the girls who gave evidence of the "chosen cases" to be reviewed?

cyfrifia Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:37 am

As Simon Danczuk MP is quoted as saying, of the rapists, in that Daily Mail article

"They knew the girls had been to the police and social services and because nothing happened they must have thought 'We can get away with raping girls for as long as we want'".

The lack of response of the authorities did give out that, as it was, broadly correct, message.

Hinch Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:48 am

Very upsetting listening to the 15 year old girl on R4 this morning. Taken to various houses in Rochdale, Oldham Bradford etc. Ordered to take off her knickers and then 5-6 Asian men would rape and abuse her. Any monies paid would not go to her but to 'her handlers'.

Still, according to social workers it was 'a lifestyle choice'.

Some ******* choice!

Charly Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:46 am

I think there is still the misunderstanding that these girls were in the care of social services...only 1 of the victims was actually in care, and she was in a £100,000 a year placement.
The other derogotary statement I feel is the one where these girls were described as being "from chaotic council estate backgrounds"
Not all children brought up on council estates have a 'chaotic' life, I would go so far as to say 99% of "council house" kids go on to become decent law abiding citizens.

Spartacus Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:11 pm

Well said, cyfrifia, Hinch and Charly.

We know that this abuse was IGNORED and ALLOWED to continue for a very long time. Do we know what the turning point was? What was the change that led to these men being investigated and charged?

Charly Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:18 pm

Maybe it was because the asian girl came forward in Oldham and accused the ringleader of the gang of raping and abusing her since she was 12? I think the police and social services were then forced to take action as she maybe wasn't your average (white) "council estate " girl who was having 'consensual sex' who 'knew what she was doing'

johnb Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:56 pm

To understand why Rochdale Social Services performend so ineptly, it is worth casting minds back about 25 years. RMC Social Services were in the midst of another scandal. This was the infamous 'Satanic Abuse' case where 'moral' and 'religiously motivated' social workers put many children from chaotic council estate backgrounds into care, making many of them suffer intrusive medical examinations because of allegations they had been victims of 'Satanic Abuse'.

Of course, these cases were never proved one way or the other, and the social workers involved were vilified for excessive and heavy anded interference while following their own agendas.

I'm not wishing to draw firm comparisons or justify any actions, but it does seem that Social Services can't do right whatever they do. How much is the lack of response in this case due to the vilficiation last time anything major was done?

UP THE DALE Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:21 pm

"Meanwhile, a Freedom of Information response showed that health workers made 83 formal attempts to tell Rochdale Borough Council they believed young people were being abused or were at risk between 2004 and 2010.

Greater Manchester Police also received 44 referrals from an NHS Crisis Intervention Team, the Guardian revealed"

That same team of dedicated health workers was shut down.

cyfrifia Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:30 pm

It is a difficult job for social services. To be fair, I would put some of the blame on the general public for being unaware of, disinterested and disengaged with what goes on. This sort of grooming has been widespread in the towns of northern England for many years.

Yes, the depth of depravity revealed was shocking, but the basic process of asian gangs systematically grooming young white girls, supplying, getting them hooked on drugs and pimping them out has long been quite visible both on the streets, and in local newspapers.

The case in the news at the moment, apart from Rochdale, is Rotherham, same pattern.

It's probably partly inter-generational incomprehension, it's amazing how little adults understand of the world children and teenagers live in, and partly the race aspect, anyone who spoke up has been howled down, giving the rapists the impression the law did not apply to them, both on this, and other types of crime.

Guest Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:11 pm

Spartacus wrote:Well said, cyfrifia, Hinch and Charly.

We know that this abuse was IGNORED and ALLOWED to continue for a very long time. Do we know what the turning point was? What was the change that led to these men being investigated and charged?

Case Review 1.

Late 2010, a male was arrested as a result of one of the victim's (recurring) evidence. Soon after that the GMP launched an investigation in gang abuse-grooming, 'Operation Span,' in Rochdale. This VERY limited review currently being discussed, described as a 'Learning Event' by Rochdale Borough Safeguarding Children's Board, has focused on one girl as its case study. It is an open public document, which I personally found heaving with platitudes, irrelevances and several immaterial so-called explanations.

A very small number of victims were interviewed as a little Addendum to this report, Victims clearly stated agencies which they considered helped them and those agencies that had not been supportive. They expressed frustration with response from Children's Social Care and the Police and described these services as 'not listening' to them. They felt they had co-operated fully with Police processes and given sufficient information for the agencies to help protect them, but nothing changed and the abuse carried on.

There are two reviews yet to come, RMBC's "own" and a Serious Case Review. Jim Taylor stated in June, in London, that the RMBC review would include at least 47 victims connected to the trial, which is a statement he may yet choose to correct.

Admin Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:45 pm

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/73742/man-jailed-for-rape

Admin Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:49 pm

Charly wrote:I think there is still the misunderstanding that these girls were in the care of social services...only 1 of the victims was actually in care, and she was in a £100,000 a year placement. The other derogotary statement I feel is the one where these girls were described as being "from chaotic council estate backgrounds" Not all children brought up on council estates have a 'chaotic' life, I would go so far as to say 99% of "council house" kids go on to become decent law abiding citizens.

Do you mean when they come out of prison Charly. (Uncharacteristic Admin smiley Laughing

)

Spartacus Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:51 pm

I'm wiser now, Mojo Hill. Thank you.

UP THE DALE wrote:"Meanwhile, a Freedom of Information response showed that health workers made 83 formal attempts to tell Rochdale Borough Council they believed young people were being abused or were at risk between 2004 and 2010.

Greater Manchester Police also received 44 referrals from an NHS Crisis Intervention Team, the Guardian revealed"

That same team of dedicated health workers was shut down.

I think this speaks volumes.

83 FORMAL attempts from health workers and 44 referrals from an NHS Crisis Intervention Team to RMBC! Yet only a couple of the girls involved were in the "care system." Does not make sense that RMBC would not have shared that information with other agencies - what happened to working in partnership?

I remember the satanic abuse issue but I fail to see why those events would have impacted on this issue. These girls were reporting what was happening to them, their families and health professionals were backing them up. RMBC staff were also reporting what was happening. I think the reason why this issue was not dealt with lies much higher up the chain of command than "front line staff" and "lack of training."

Hinch Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:06 pm

Ithink it's simple to understand.

They made their minds up very early on what these girls were and nothing that they heard or discovered later could shake that belief. When these beliefs were challenged, the organisation 'circled the wagons'.

Same with the police. Not sure what went on with Education but I suspect summat similar or perhaps they just looked the other way? Equally damning in my book.

Now, I'd like to know a bit more about the councillors overseeing the appropriate Departments. Did they know or were they told anything and if so, what did they do about it?

There is much more to discover yet. Another report from the Council due next month. Never had a lot of faith in organisations investigating themselves really.Too much whitewash and close-relationship stuff about. Maybe I'm being too cynical but 35 years in public service does tend to make you like that.

The SCR due out next year is certain to be far more probing and likely to have far wider terms or reference. The Terms of Reference are of course key as is the appointment of the right Chairman/woman.

UP THE DALE Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:46 pm

Admin wrote:http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/73742/man-jailed-for-rape

Too short of a sentence in my opinion.

johnb Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:22 pm

Too short a sentence for serious assault, let alone rape.

Charly Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:59 pm

Jim Taylor the chief executive of RMBC is to be called before a Parliamentary committee.
Keith Vaz said he wanted Mr Taylor to 'answer questions'
For those of you who missed his interview on Radio 4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9755000/9755394.stm

cringeworthy or what?

And of further interest

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmhaff/uc182-i/uc18201.htm

Guest Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:38 pm

Charly wrote:Taylor the chief executive of RMBC is to be called before a Parliamentary committee.
Keith Vaz said he wanted Mr Taylor to 'answer questions'
For those of you who missed his interview on Radio 4

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9755000/9755394.stm

cringeworthy or what?

Massive cringe and likely to be more I've just realised I forgot to answer your prev query:

The Home Affairs Select Committee started their own enquiry into child sex exploitation and held their 1^st session on 12 June 2012.

Jim Taylor and Councillor Colin Lambert from RMBC and GMP Chief Constable Peter Fahy and Detective Chief Superintendent Mary Doyle were four of the six people invited to attend. Councillor Lambert diverted into care home matters at the time.

It seems Sir Peter Fahy was asked by Keith Vaz, ‘But you are not angry with your own organisation? Forty-seven girls who were the vulnerable victims of gangs over a period of four years had come to the police to complain and your response was, " We could have done things better. " Lives have been ruined and there seems to be no anger directed at the police officers who have dealt with this case. I find that extraordinary.

Chief Constable Fahy was reported to have commented during the session: We are saying that if you look at this type of offence, Asian men feature disproportionately. Part of the session was televised and shown on various news channels.

ROCHDALE POLICE Ch Supt Annette Anderson, Divisional Commander for Rochdale, is reported to have said it " acknowledges its (RBSCB) findings " but said "criminals should take ultimate responsibility for their actions".

Guest Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:45 pm

hinch wrote:Ithink it's simple to understand.

They made their minds up very early on what these girls were and nothing that they heard or discovered later could shake that belief. When these beliefs were challenged, the organisation 'circled the wagons'.

Same with the police. Not sure what went on with Education but I suspect summat similar or perhaps they just looked the other way? Equally damning in my book.

Now, I'd like to know a bit more about the councillors overseeing the appropriate Departments. Did they know or were they told anything and if so, what did they do about it?

There is much more to discover yet. Another report from the Council due next month. Never had a lot of faith in organisations investigating themselves really.Too much whitewash and close-relationship stuff about. Maybe I'm being too cynical but 35 years in public service does tend to make you like that.

The SCR due out next year is certain to be far more probing and likely to have far wider terms or reference. The Terms of Reference are of course key as is the appointment of the right Chairman/woman.

I agree with all that and I'd really like to know a bit more about the councillors-portfolio holders overseeing the appropriate Departments.

cyfrifia Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:47 pm

ROCHDALE POLICE Ch Supt Annette Anderson, Divisional Commander for Rochdale, is reported to have said it " acknowledges its (RBSCB) findings " but said "criminals should take ultimate responsibility for their actions".

It's no use blaming the criminals, it's the job of the police to investigate and arrest them. The criminals are behaving as you would expect criminals to do, criminally. It was the police not doing what you would expect them to do that's the problem.

Spartacus Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:51 pm

Jim Taylor might be the current CEO of RMBC but he's only been in post for a short time. I think it would be highly unlikely, given what has been disclosed so far, that he's been advised of all the facts. Unfortunately, he will be taking a lot of flak for the actions of others and I think that is unfair.

GMP have worked extremely hard to bring these men to justice and all credit to them. However, there has been extraordinary failures in bringing the prosecutions earlier and senior officers adopting a sloppy shoulders attitude is shameless.

cyfrifia Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:37 am

A considerable number of people were involved, many 'groomers' known to the police have never been arrested or prosecuted, the number of victims is considerable too. Considering how many people either knew, because they were involved, or knew people that were, and had a fair idea of the kind of thing that was happening, it appears likely that some people were to some extent, intimidated, too intimidated to want to say anything. With the police and authorities apparently turning a blind eye, anyone who was intimidated would not be expecting much help from the police if they did speak out. Some of the convicted men are not the sort of characters you want to either challenge or say anything about that might get back to them, especially as they hang about in gangs.

Spartacus Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:44 am

cyfrifia wrote:A considerable number of people were involved, many 'groomers' known to the police have never been arrested or prosecuted, the number of victims is considerable too. Considering how many people either knew, because they were involved, or knew people that were, and had a fair idea of the kind of thing that was happening, it appears likely that some people were to some extent, intimidated, too intimidated to want to say anything. With the police and authorities apparently turning a blind eye, anyone who was intimidated would not be expecting much help from the police if they did speak out. Some of the convicted men are not the sort of characters you want to either challenge or say anything about that might get back to them, especially as they hang about in gangs.

Yet successful prosecutions were achieved when the police eventually took action. How many could have been achieved if the police had listened and acted earlier?

Charly Fri Sep 28, 2012 12:52 am

It makes it even more horrendous knowing that it was reported many times by the girls themselves, parents and health workers, and wasn't taken further at the time.
How many of these girls could have been spared the suffering had the authorities taken the appropriate action at first?
Cushy jobs where it was too much trouble to rock the boat?
What about the officer yawning loudly while supposedly listening to a young girl telling him what had been happening to her? Twisted Evil

Time the wheat was sorted from the chaff.

cyfrifia Fri Sep 28, 2012 10:10 am

Considering what a huge, unpleasant and damaging issue this is, how widespread it is in other towns, how closely what has happened in Rochdale mirrors what has happened elsewhere, how very many years it's been going on for, and how much damage has been done, the procedure and remit of a normal 'Serious Case Review' to investigate is too limited to be properly useful.

The failures in Police, Local Authorities and other agencies reflect more general failures. The subsequent and ongoing disintegration of confidence in authorities and in society is seriously damaging.

Politics is presently focused on other things. We are unlikely to see this dealt with properly and with the energy needed at political level. We cannot expect the various authorities to investigate themselves properly, systems are not 'geared up' for that basic a review, or to apportion blame, rather they are designed and intended to patch up and paper over cracks.

'Serious Case Review' sounds comfortingly serious, but it isn't, it's just words, a way of letting time pass while shuffling paperwork to minimise damage to the organisations concerned. Yes, there will be some strong phrases of criticism, but that is all. To get an idea of how long this could drag on for, remember the Hillsborough report.

A rather larger investigation than a normal 'Serious Case Review', an investigation that joins up the dots of what has happened here and elsewhere, how it has been allowed to happen, how these people have been allowed to operate, and what 'business models' have been developed to make money from it, is needed.

Rather more relevant than paperwork reports in the long run, is the attitude of the public, including those who work in and for all the various agencies involved. It's up to us as individuals, and as a society to be more clued up, realistic, observant, caring, willing to speak up, willing to put aside political correctness and cultural sensitivity, and to think how best we can intervene when necessary.

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