'Whole-life' jail terms

Guest Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:15 pm

'Whole-life' jail terms have been upheld by leading judges. A panel of five judges, headed by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Thomas, announced their decision on controversial “ life-means-life ” orders at the Court of Appeal in London.

Sentencing in a number of high-profile criminal cases had been put on hold - including the terms to be handed out to soldier Lee Rigby’s murderers - pending the judgment.

The government has said that whole-life tariffs are “wholly justified in the most heinous cases”.

The European Court of Human Rights has declared them unlawful .

There are currently 53 criminals serving whole-life sentences, including Levi Bellfield, the killer of the teenager Millie Dowler, and Mark Bridger, who killed five-year-old April Jones. Also among the whole-life termers are Jeremy Bamber, who killed five members of his own family, serial killer Peter Moore, who killed four men for fun, and Douglas Vinter, who killed his wife. They are the among the men who appealed to the ECHR in July and won their case when the 17 judges ruled their sentences had been "inhuman and degrading"

Our courts have disagreed with the European Court of Human Rights; likely backlashes ? and what crimes could you support whole-life tariffs for ? ?

Atlas Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:33 am

None. I'm not trained to judge.

However from my limited knowledge and experience, any crimes that purposely take life/lives with callous and cruel intent and are of a 'sound' conviction (i.e. undisputed and evidential) and whereby the person is of reasonably sound mind should carry a minimum of sentence up until the defendant has reached an age whereby any remainder of life would be purely 'waiting for God' i.e. 80 years old. There should always be the 'right' of appeal in the event of 'new evidence' that would make the conviction unsafe coming to light during the period of incarceration. Rolling Eyes

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:39 am

Bring back the death penalty I say.

Chill37 Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:22 am

keithatrochdale wrote:Bring back the death penalty I say.

No.

Few reasons. Miscarriages of justice have happened numerous times, Sion Jenkins, Guiildford Bombers, Stefan Kisko. List goes on. So if we had the death penalty, we would have killed innocent people. Yes these miscarriages are rare, but they have happened and no doubt will happen again.

Furthermore, I believe that people who are under life sentences are being punished . If you put them at the end of a noose or your chosen method of execution - they are into hell there and then. Meanwhile the victims relatives have a life sentence. So why should the convicted person get an easy way out?

Personally I would go one step further and introduce a Fed Max Prison for all Lifers. Zero luxurys like you are supposed to get in prison according to various news sources. Just the hard basics. Throw them in and forget about them.

johnb Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:46 pm

keithatrochdale wrote:

Bring back the death penalty I say.

As in the Stefan Kisko case, of course...

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:51 pm

Yes, there may be the odd mistake, but the effect of having this punishment acts as a deterrent.

I am sure the people killed by these people would think it just!

And it is cheaper for us; look at what it costs to keep a person in prison!

Often the person in prison lives a much better life than our pensioners, who have hurt nobody, fought for us in the war; free accomadation with cooked meals, TV, gym and other facilities provided.

Chill37 Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:05 pm

keithatrochdale wrote:Yes there may be the odd mistake, but the effect of having this punishment acts as a deterrent.

I am sure the people killed by these people would think it just!

And it is cheaper for us; look at what it costs to keep a person in prison!

Often the person in prison lives a much better life than our pensioners who have hurt nobody, fought for us in the war; free accomadation with cooked meals, TV, gym and other facilities provided

A small mistake? Executing innocent people. Well that's ok then. Small mistake to happen killing innocent people.

I have already mentioned a 'super max' prison like USA has. Bare minimum. Concrete bed frame, sloping walls. Set in the middle of nowhere. Lets build one on Dartmoor. Throw them in, never mention them again. Well until the day that they shuffle off into Hell.

Personally a whole life is life tariff and you will cease to 'exist,' no right to vote, no luxuries . Seems good to me. As for costs- make them work. Crushing stone for road works etc. Make them earn their cell.

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:32 pm

Chill37 where did I say small? Shocked

Chill37 Wed Feb 19, 2014 2:40 pm

keithatrochdale wrote:Chill37 where did I say small?

Ok correction . Odd then. My brain reading one thing, then my fingers typing another. I'll redact my previous word of small.

Guest Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:54 pm

The Appeal Court decision has led to some 'grisly' media Memory-Jogging : -

Excluding non-murder sentences, Britain's deadliest criminals: The 47 lifers who will never be freed from jail

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-deadliest-criminals-47-lifers-2032915

pale

Hinch Wed Feb 19, 2014 9:57 pm

Not a fan of whole life tariffs as they discriminate against those who live to a ripe old age.

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:03 pm

Hinch wrote:Not a fan of whole life tariffs as they discriminate against those who live to a ripe old age.

Exactly, they should have been executed. Very Happy

Guest Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:02 pm

Hinch wrote:Not a fan of whole life tariffs as they discriminate against those who live to a ripe old age

Oh since when has ripe old age been absolved?. Shocked

! It also looks like developments in DNA/forensic evidence techniques are securing more convictions of ripe ‘older’ aged criminals.

Claire Woolterton murder: DNA caught 66 year-old Colin Campbell - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-25059818 .

Guest Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:30 pm

Lee Rigby murder: Adebolajo and Adebowale face sentence this afternoon

Will they or wont they (and some may question 'should they?') get whole-life jail terms ?

Mr Gottlieb, lawyer for Adebolajo, apparently said the murder "shares the characteristics of a religiously aggravated crime". He proposed that a minimum prison term would be "sufficient punishment" for Lee Rigby's murder pale

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26357007 Updated

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:00 pm

And who does not think we should bring back hanging? Evil or Very Mad

Hinch Wed Feb 26, 2014 8:29 pm

I believe that all killing is wrong so I am opposed to capital punishment, although cases like this do test my moral stance.

Dalelad Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:09 pm

keithatrochdale wrote:
And who does not think we should bring back hanging?

Me, because unlike these two, I do not believe in the deliberate taking of human life to help solve whatever (perceived) wrongs have happened before.
I really want to believe that as a society we are more advanced in our thinking than that or them

Hinch Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:18 pm

As a nurse, I spent the whole of my professional life trying to save or promote quality of life.

However, I rarely get into arguments on this issue as people tend to have strongly held views and nothing I will say is likely to change anyone's mind.

When hanging etc is sanctioned by the State, it is essentially saying that killing is OK. To me, killing is wrong, whoever does it.

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:54 pm

So how many millions is it going to cost us to house these guests? confused

This is a very good way of saving money. cheers

Maybe you would change your mind if it was somebody from your family! farao

Guest Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:11 pm

I hadn't thought about Capital Punishment, but I think that the sentencing descriptions and narrative used by Judge Sweeney were very appropriate.

Giving Michael Adebolajo a whole-life term. and Adebowale a minimum of 45 years, for the utterly barbaric murder of Fusilier Lee Rigby showed sentences his family, and many others, thought fitting.

Surely this is a case where a 'whole-life' sentence determined by an experienced Judge is warranted ?

Chill37 Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:21 pm

keithatrochdale wrote:So how many millions is it going to cost us to house these guests?

This is a very good way of saving money.

Maybe you would change your mind if it was somebody from your family!

No I wouldnt change my mind from life is life to a death sentence. I would want them away for the rest of their days in a sparse prison. Removed from society.

keithatrochdale Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:48 pm

Chill37 wrote:

No I wouldnt change my mind from life is life to a death sentence. I would want them away for the rest of their days in a sparse prison. Removed from society.

But that will not happen. They will be fed, clothed, have TV and probably xbox in their cell. Heath treatment, dental care, no bills to pay. Yes it must be hard! They will continue to live, something Lee Rigby is not allowed to do!

And how quickly will parole be considered. Maybe they will appeal and be let off on a technicality.

Maybe they will be taken to town for day release like the other murderer the other day. QUOTE: Police are urging people to be cautious if they suspect they recognise a convicted murderer who has absconded whilst on day release with prison staff in Rochdale town centre.

cyfrifia Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:03 pm

The whole thing has been totally sickening, a hanging would not improve matters. If the sentences are properly carried out, that will do. On the question of an easy life in jail, prisoners should never have a better quality of life than a pensioner.

Atlas Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:33 am

A life for a life?? And where does that stop?? Looks like you could be on your own with this one keithofrochdale. What is your aim - revenge or justice? You'll get neither in this world. So we all have to settle for something less, but whilst we are at it let's at least use our intelligence. If we allow 'violence to begat violence' there will never be a worthwhile future for all of us, or any future generations. If it was a deterrent that 'worked' you might have a point. It doesn't. Never has. Never will. (Not to mention the Innocent put to death by 'mistakes'). Removing the 'freedom' is the best you can hope for - and evolution. Give it another 5,000 years. Then you might see a difference - hopefully! Rolling Eyes

Hinch Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:23 am

Of course, for those who claim to support capital punishment, hanging will never be enough. If it was restored tomorrow, they'd soon be demanding 'an eye for an eye' and that people are put to death in the same mañner as their victims. The killers of Lee Rigby would be repeatedly stabbed and partially decapitated by the Public Executioner.

Violence just begets violence.

Put 'em away for life in a tough nick. Feed 'em, clothe 'em and give 'em medical care but apart from that, throw away the key.

That'll satisfy me.

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