Re: Sex grooming: 9 more charged

teamplayer2 Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:02 pm

Shocking of all the Christian Church that knew about the perverts and covering the scandal up for a number of years.

All other areas of society who know about it but thought just to stay quiet and hope it will go away or not to rock the establishment.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:11 pm

Absolutely, Teamplayer. Shudder to think how many victims in our town over the years from such people.

Guest Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:51 pm

cyfrifia wrote:No, 'Local sex ring scandal' doesn't quite describe the organised, merciless, methodical, repeated and multiple rapes of many children, using hard drugs, alcohol and violence, the attitudes of the criminals displayed in court, the racist edge to it, the failure of authorities to respond to it, or the non-reaction of the community it happened in.

The above says it like it is. If you treat the physical on-street grooming crimes in a One-Category of "sex crimes," there would and will be no tailored investigations.

A slap across the face can be reprehensible, but few would put it at 'the bar' of assault with a metal weapon

Rape is vile and nauseating. Multiple rapes of a trafficked child made incoherent by drugs is ?

Repeated: There are degrees and types of sexual abuse of children.

This specific classification of on-street grooming of children seems to have received less attention and understanding than many other forms of sexual abuse. That's what to keep an eagle eye on here, as our local history lamentably demonstrates.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:13 pm

Are you suggesting Molly Hill that the Rochdale sex grooming monsters crimes were worse than say the ex cabinet minister's crimes or that of Saville? Or even the Cambridge House crimes. All these crimes in my book are equally disgusting. A sex crime IS a sex crime. If a person is capable of one type of sex crime, or a one off, than they are capable of many.

On street grooming is different than that of the grooming taking part in a country house or golf course, etc. All are as disgusting as the other. The crimes Saville did are no worse than the Rochdale crimes and visa versa. Sex crimes are all vile and should be treated as such. Yes there has to be different ways of investigating or taking on the various different types of sex crimes. Hopefully in the future the police etc will do their jobs properly. Just because someone has only been caught for one rape does not mean they would not have carried out far more rapes.

It was disgraceful the length of time the Rochdale/Heywood sex monsters took to be jailed, we would all agree to that. But compared to Cambridge House as an example or some of Saville's crimes that happened in the 60's, the Knowl View School crimes some going back to 70's possibly, it was relatively quick that the crimes of the Rochdale sex grooming monsters got prosecuted.

Guest Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:27 pm

UP THE DALE wrote:Are you suggesting Molly Hill that the Rochdale sex grooming monsters crimes were worse than say the ex cabinet minister's crimes or that of Saville? Or even the Cambridge House crimes. All these crimes in my book are equally disgusting. A sex crime IS a sex crime.

If a person is capable of one type of sex crime, or a one off, than they are capable of many.

On street grooming is different than that of the grooming taking part in a country house or golf course, etc. All are as disgusting as the other.

The crimes Saville did are no worse than the Rochdale crimes and visa versa.

UTD: I'm just dumbfounded by your assertions and your dismissal of crime categories-degrees.

Not to acknowledge the differences between pedophilia, child pornography, rape, groping, incest and stalking for example, lies beyond credence.

Why you have one comparison involving a golf course and a street suggests your personal (socio-)party-political thinking.

Charly Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:00 pm

News on tv just now says there is a call for the abuse in childrens homes in Wales to be re-investigated.
Good.
I hope the Knowl View cases will be looked at again.

johnb Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:02 pm

More importantly, EVEN IF we do not try to put the crimes in ranking order - all are equally disgusting - it is VERY useful to group similar crimes together to identify and categorise motivation and method of operation. It breaks the problem down into chunks that can be more easily resolved. One chunk might be corrupt politicians assaulting the vulnerable in care, another chunk might be the abuse of position by celebrities, another might on-street grooming of vulnerable girls by Asian men.

ALL are repugnant, grouping like crimes together might help resolution and closure.

Charly Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:04 pm

UP THE DALE wrote: Frightening to think a very prominent ex local politician/business man was involved in such matters, allegedly, certainly at Cambridge House but also possibly at Knowl View school.

I think we are on the same person so yes, he was a governor of the school at the time.

teamplayer2 Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:52 pm

I do not know the full story but it does need to be looked at. The whole situation makes me sick just reading it.

cyfrifia Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:20 pm

Charly wrote:News on tv just now says there is a call for the abuse in childrens homes in Wales to be re-investigated.

On the childrens homes in Wales,
Quote "the inquiry's report was never published and the copies were pulped to ensure the local authority was able to maintain its insurance cover."

The BBC report gives the context.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20196086

Apparently local authorities in the past were more concerned with their insurance premiums than with public disclosure.

There are so many news reports now of historic abuse, each case so complicated and shadowy, there is a tendency to lump it all together, but some of the crimes and series of crimes really are much worse than others. It's someones job to find out all the facts and prosecute (or not) accordingly. Looks like a lot of work.

As Imam Irfan Chishti explained
http://menmedia.co.uk/rochdaleobserver/news/s/1467595_top-muslim-cleric-slams-evil-sex-gangs

"For a theft, robbery or murder there are clear Sharia rulings. But this is such a horrific crime and event that there are no clear cut rules."

"It is beyond the limits of evil."

"What has happened to us as a community when we have Muslims who kidnap young, innocent lives and who rape them and pillage them, crimes that we can’t even define in the limits of the Qur'an?"

Similarly, the existing conventional system of reports, investigations and reviews in place to keep tabs on this kind of thing are not designed to cope with the amount, depth, speed, range and accuracy of investigation needed.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Mojo Hill wrote:
UP THE DALE wrote:Are you suggesting Molly Hill that the Rochdale sex grooming monsters crimes were worse than say the ex cabinet minister's crimes or that of Saville? Or even the Cambridge House crimes. All these crimes in my book are equally disgusting. A sex crime IS a sex crime.

If a person is capable of one type of sex crime, or a one off, than they are capable of many.

On street grooming is different than that of the grooming taking part in a country house or golf course, etc. All are as disgusting as the other.

The crimes Saville did are no worse than the Rochdale crimes and visa versa.

UTD: I'm just dumbfounded by your assertions and your dismissal of crime categories-degrees.

Not to acknowledge the differences between pedophilia, child pornography, rape, groping, incest and stalking for example, lies beyond credence.

Why you have one comparison involving a golf course and a street suggests your personal (socio-)party-political thinking.

Of course there is a difference in certain types of crime, but the cases I mention all are very serious offences.

The case in Wales involves allegations of rape, under-age sex etc, as does the Knowl View School, Rochdale case, and the Saville case. Cambridge House involved disgusting physical acts on young men, including groping of private areas of the body. All are equally as bad in my opinion and all should be investigated fully until all the facts come out, and until we find out why the guilty (if any) people did not face justice at the time, including whether or not so called cultural/ religious reasons were a factor in the crimes, and what can be done to stop these crimes happening in the future.

FACT one crime involved street grooming and one involved some acts happening allegedly at a golf course. Most golfers are working class people, and I do NOT support a political party-such a silly view you put forward, to suggest that what I put forward was political.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:39 pm

johnb wrote:More importantly, EVEN IF we do not try to put the crimes in ranking order - all are equally disgusting - it is VERY useful to group similar crimes together to identify and categorise motivation and method of operation. It breaks the problem down into chunks that can be more easily resolved. One chunk might be corrupt politicians assaulting the vulnerable in care, another chunk might be the abuse of position by celebrities, another might on-street grooming of vulnerable girls by Asian men.

ALL are repugnant, grouping like crimes together might help resolution and closure.

Indeed. All the crimes hopefully will be fully investigated and lessons be learned. We need to know what if any cover ups have occurred in all the cases mentioned and learn the lessons.

UP THE DALE Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:42 pm

Charly wrote:News on tv just now says there is a call for the abuse in childrens homes in Wales to be re-investigated.Good.

I hope the Knowl View cases will be looked at again.

Agree. Also Cambridge House case should be reopened. I don't care if any of the guilty(if any) are now dead, the truth about them should come out.

Guest Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:32 am

Comments very recently made on this thread about ‘chunks’ and grouping scenarios would have scant rating in criminal investigative analysis.

Insights into the changing dynamics of human behaviours remain as progressive learning by dedicated specialists.

Offenders continually reshape their M.O. to meet the demands of their crimes.

cyfrifia Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:03 pm

Criminal methods of operation can and do change quickly. It's a complicated society to police, with different and changing groups with their own networks and ways of doing things.

The police certainly have a lot to do, is this yet another investigation for them?

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10026444.Police_launch_sex_abuse_investigation_into_two_East_Lancashire_children_s_homes/

Some of these cases are have a very complicated background to them, police have to sort out international arrest warrants and so on.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/burnley/10024731.Illegal_immigrant_who_sexually_assaulted_a_sleeping_teenager_in_Burnley_is_jailed/

Hinch Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:52 pm

Very adaptable is the modern crim. Currently using metal-detectors to target Asian houses to search for gold jewellery. The mind boggles.

Amazing what you hear at council meetings.

cyfrifia Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:29 pm

Councillor Duxbury wrote:using metal-detectors to target Asian houses to search for gold jewellery.

I've only ever heard of that in Deeplish. Did they get a 'crime innovation' award?

Guest Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:58 pm

[quote="cyfrifia
I've only ever heard of that in Deeplish. Did they get a 'crime innovation' award? [/quote]

Don’t think you are allowed to make a joke now; machine gunner on defensive Suspect

Metal detectors were used last year in Leicester, Slough and Reading; copy cat criminals

Don’t suppose gold jewellery sales come under scrap metal dealing law; without any records gold is bought, sold all over, melted down; amazing values have been reported in peoples houses.

cyfrifia Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:34 pm

The nine men charged will appear at Bury & Rochdale Magistrates’ Court on Friday 9th November.

In the meantime, their names, adresses and dates of birth have all been published in the newspaper.

Is it right that men charged with such serious and emotive offenses as rape, or involvement with, rape of a child under 16, but innocent until proved guilty should be named and identified in this way?

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/74948/child-sexual-exploitation-men-due-in-court

Guest Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Charly wrote:Should be interesting to watch.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/74886/mohammed-shafiq-commissioned-to-present-bbc-inside-out-programme

It was; he was; fair contents. Surprised !
Expect its on iplayer.

johnb Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:05 pm

He did well. He faced the issues head on.

Got to say it makes a change, but maybe now more will take the same position.

Charly Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:31 am

cyfrifia wrote:The nine men charged will appear at Bury & Rochdale Magistrates’ Court on Friday 9th November.

http://www.rochdaleonline.co.uk/news-features/2/news-headlines/74948/child-sexual-exploitation-men-due-in-court

They are not all in court on Friday.
1 is in court Wednesday 7th
1 on Thursday 8th
1 on Friday 9th
2 on 21st
1 on 22nd
1on 23rd
1 on 5th December
1on 6th December
I guess they are spacing them out for a reason?
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2012-10-24/nine-rochdale-men-charged-with-sex-offences-against-teenager/

Guest Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:16 am

They are all in court on Friday, Charly.

The ITV report was correct when it was published two weeks ago but the situation has changed. The RO report came from a police update yesterday (5 November).

Charly Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:10 am

My apologies, I didn't know the dates had been changed from the original report.

Charly Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:36 am

Well, its the select committee hearing today, I hope Steve Garner is well enough to attend Wink

http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1592793_ex-rochdale-childrens-services-boss-too-ill-to-attend-select-committee-hearing-on-sex-grooming-scandal